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freetime2 19 hours ago [-]
I use a kei truck for farming. They are incredibly pragmatic little vehicles. They are very capable driving around on dirt/gravel agricultural roads with 4WD, and they are inexpensive and robust enough that you can really beat them up and use them as a tool without worry. Repairs and replacement parts are ubiquitous and inexpensive. Having the sides of bed fold down is also really useful.
They aren't comfortable to drive at all (although just having A/C at all on a hot summer day in the field is a godsend), and I wouldn't want to do longer trips in one - although you certainly could in a pinch.
It seems like Toyota/Scion is just testing the waters here, and I'm not sure how successful they'll be. But I hope there is a future for kei trucks in the US.
SOLAR_FIELDS 19 hours ago [-]
I've been driving a 2 seater manual Ford Ranger for the past 15 years and it definitely feels like the next level up of the kei philosophy. I'll probably drive it for the rest of my life at this point. It has crank windows, it's indestructible, and it climbs stuff like a little buggy - I've taken it places where sometimes even Jeeps struggle. It's not the car you take on a long road trip, but maybe different tools for different jobs.
It's a shame they don't really make them anymore. If I could buy a modern vehicle in the States that had the following properties:
- 2 seater
- Pickup truck
- Manual transmission
- Minimum 6 foot bed
I'd probably do it in a heartbeat. But even these somewhat weak constraints fail every vehicle in the USA market.
gopalv 18 hours ago [-]
> - Manual transmission
The Toyota eCVT is an engineering marvel[1].
The hybrid power train is simpler than a regular transmission and made of more durable parts.
The clutch itself might not have to disappear for more fine grained power delivery, the new Ferrari clutch-by-wire[2] is a similar bit of a few hall sensors talking to the ECU.
You can build a simulacrum of a manual low-mode transmission without needing to use it constantly in stop-go traffic or while sliding backwards on loose dirt.
In kei trucks I think the manual transmission is mainly just about cost of ownership. A new 4WD kei truck with MT costs ¥1,226,500 ($7,727 USD) compared to ¥1,303,500 ($8,212) for an automatic transmission - about 6% less [1]. And longer term repairs/replacement of a manual transmission tend to be less costly than an automatic transmission. Not a huge difference - but the applications where these trucks tend to be used are not exactly high margin, either.
I don't think we're likely to see a Toyota hybrid system or Ferarri-style drive-by-wire clutch at that price point. Although maybe in the future we could see EV kei trucks at a comparable price [2].
Personally I think it's worth spending slightly more for the convenience of a manual transmission (and my license doesn't actually permit me to drive a manual on public roads) - although some of my buddies laughed at me for buying an automatic kei truck. I think at this point though automatic transmission sales probably exceed manual transmission sales.
I always found it interesting that Europe and other international locales separate manual vs automatic in license grades. The USA does not - my license does not care if the car I operate is manual or automatic. I'm classed based on weight and axles and length only.
On one hand, you would think it makes sense. It IS an additional skillset to operate a manual transmission vehicle. On the other hand, if you can't operate a manual properly, you aren't getting very far anyway. Was there really that big of a spate of "I didn't know how to operate the manual, so I wrecked the vehicle" sort of issues in Europe and elsewhere that pre-empt this and justify the extra bureaucracy?
freetime2 14 hours ago [-]
Japan is a lot stricter than the US when it comes to driving in general. The minimum age is higher, the driving test is more difficult, it's easier to lose your license for traffic violations, speed limits are lower, mandated vehicle inspections are much more expensive/comprehensive, there is zero tolerance for drinking and driving (even one sip), etc. This is reflected in traffic fatality figures - 12.8 deaths per 100,000 people in the US vs 1.9 in Japan [1].
So while I'm not sure about the origin of manual vs automatic licenses specifically, it's not really surprising in the broader context of Japan's strict stance on driving.
In practice it means if you want to drive manual, you need to take the driving test in a manual - which is not unreasonable. But seeing as how only 13% of foreigners pass Japan's practical driving test on the first attempt (to be fair, it was easier back when I took it) [2], and I hadn't driven manual in years, I wasn't looking to make things any more difficult for myself.
Or there is also the option to take some lessons at a driving school and get certified to drive a manual (with the assessment at the end being easier than taking the official test). But I haven't really had a good reason to bother with this.
It's the same in France (and most of Europe), you have two options for the practical driving test: and automatic only one, which you can attempt the exam for after 13h of lessons, and a manual + automatic one, which you can attempt after 20h of lessons. (in reality almost nobody manages it after 13/20h if you haven't driven before, the average is around 30h of lessons for manual).
If you took the automatic-only test, and have an automatic-only license, you can take an additional 7 hours of lessons to remove the automatic-only restriction from your license.
It does indeed make sense, since manual requires more skill, and attempting to drive a manual on the street without knowing how could be dangerous.
Funnily enough you can visit europe, and drive here on a canadian/US license, without ever having driven a manual.
goodcanadian 9 hours ago [-]
I had driven manual for years, including in the UK on my Canadian license, but when I swapped my Canadian license for a UK one, I got an automatic only license because I had never taken a test in a manual. I haven't bothered upgrading because I drive electric these days, but it is mildly annoying.
2 hours ago [-]
doikor 12 hours ago [-]
> This is reflected in traffic fatality figures - 12.8 deaths per 100,000 people in the US vs 1.9 in Japan
Deaths per X km driven would be a more useful statistics. Japan has such a well functioning public transport system which just leads to people driving less.
freetime2 12 hours ago [-]
As of 2024 it was 4.7 fatalities per 1 billion kilometers driven in Japan, vs 7.8 in US - or about a 66% increase in relative risk in the US per kilometer driven vs Japan.
Road fatalities per 10,000 registered vehicles were also higher in the US, at 0.4 in Japan vs 1.3 in the US.
Japan does have a significantly larger share of deaths coming from pedestrians (36%) and cyclists (15%) vs the US (18.2% vs 2.9%, respectively) - which is one of the challenges of driving in Japan. You constantly have to be on the lookout for pedestrians and cyclists coming from any direction, often on narrower streets with obstructed visibility. In the US the largest share of deaths is to car occupants themselves (~60%, though it's a little hard to determine the exact value since for some reason SUVs aren't classified as passenger cars, so deaths to SUV occupants count as "other").
I live in Japan and it's pretty insane how close drivers get to pedestrians on narrow streets. And how everyone is so used to it the drivers barely slow down at all.
Even worse was when I lived in the countryside and I'd try to go for walks down the road and motorbikes absolutely maxing out would rocket past me not giving a shit about who or what was on the road. Kinda funny looking back how the most dangerous place I lived was the Japanese countryside
numpad0 8 hours ago [-]
US is the outlier in things like traffic deaths and population density, not the other way around...
foobarian 4 hours ago [-]
Wonder if it started because of hilly terrain, back when a MT was a nightmare on steep city roads (all over Mediterranean/Alpine cities) and just kept on out of inertia.
netfortius 9 hours ago [-]
Here is a funny one, at least for Europe. Having moved from the US, from a state (not all have!) which has such an arrangement with France, I got my license "swapped" from the US one, to the French one, w/out automatic vs manual restrictions, so no issues about having driven the last 35 years out only automatic, before coming to France.
cucumber3732842 6 hours ago [-]
IDK why some parts of europe do that. Frankly it's stupid. Once you've driven your manual car for, IDK, a week, it's second nature like riding a bicycle.
The US does have separate license endorsements for manual in commercial trucks.
froddd 11 hours ago [-]
> On the other hand, if you can't operate a manual properly, you aren't getting very far anyway
Or you’re launching towards a wall, or, worse, pedestrians, by accidentally dropping the clutch due to poor feathering control.
aitchnyu 8 hours ago [-]
Arent you specifying type of transmission? For Indian made 80hp Suzuki Swift, automated manual transmission (slow and jerky unless gently accelerating) is 450$ premium, which matches the price difference of your truck.
For 80hp Suzuki Baleno and 110hp Yaris, CVT had $1200 premium, for 120hp Hyundai Verna, 6 sped TC had $1200 premium.
freetime2 8 hours ago [-]
The prices I listed above are for a 5-speed manual transmission vs CVT.
legitster 17 hours ago [-]
Ford more or less uses the same eCVT in the Maverick. They are the best hybrid transmission by far, but they still require a generator and high voltage battery.
For dirt-simple, low-fi reliability a manual transmission is still the guy for the job. I generally buy older cars and I almost never buy a car over 150k miles unless is has an manual.
zrm 15 hours ago [-]
> they still require a generator and high voltage battery.
They require two generators, but they also don't require a starter motor or an alternator. Meanwhile a non-plugin hybrid only needs around 2 kWh worth of battery, which has gotten so cheap you might prefer that to a clutch replacement.
3RTB297 13 hours ago [-]
This is exclusively an American phenomenon, and drives me crazy as well.
If you'll recall, around 2001 Nissan used to sell exactly what you and I both want: a light duty small pickup marketed in the US as the Frontier. That was the D22 model truck, which in NA eventually morphed into the larger (and arguably less capable due to bloat) Navara only years later. Most Americans forgot all about the D22 Frontier.
The rest of the world still has it, usually called the NP300 Hardbody. 2 or 4 seats, 4WD optional, crank windows, manual, basic as can be, and, to quote a guy I know that has one, "an absolute donkey." Across Africa, it's the work truck for the guys that show up to fix things and do work. Foreigners show up in a giant Toyota Land Cruiser. IIRC, It's being phased out in some markets, but it's ubiquitous as the truck that does work. It was the replacement in Southern Africa for the Nissan Champ, a tiny little pickup that didn't change design for 20 years.
Since the older NP300s are still on the road (Frankensteined together), they would be coming up on being importable under the 25+ year classic car exemption. That's about your only option to get a capable light-duty pickup in the US - import Africa's aged cars.
Or wait for this electric Slate pickup.
SoftTalker 1 hours ago [-]
I have one of those Frontiers, with a manual transmission. Absolutely flawless drivetrain. Rust is another story. The cargo bed is full of holes and I've had to replace parts of the suspension due to rust so I'm not sure how much more life I can get out of it.
REO[1] is supposedly coming out with a basic manual truck in a few years.
Slate is another option, but in the prototype videos I've seen it looks like it has about a 4' bed. That's too small for a utility pickup truck. (Edit: I checked; it's 5 feet).
As soon as you started talking about Nissan I knew you were talking about the ubiquitous white bakkie. I moved to South Africa from the US and they're indeed everywhere, though unfortunately discontinued now I think. Seems like the bloated American abominations are becoming more common here as well.
3RTB297 8 hours ago [-]
Ja, you get it, ne?
Best as I can tell, the lackluster NP200, which looks like a Champ without the character, the Mahindra pickup, and the small Ford Ranger pickup, are filling the gap. Might not be the worst thing - the Nissan NP300 bakkies are apparently terrible for accidents. Still, not everything has to look like a Hilux!
fuzztester 7 hours ago [-]
wonder what the closest equivalent to the NP300 is in india. with 2 or 4wd.
Animats 11 hours ago [-]
> Or wait for this electric Slate pickup.
If that actually ships, it might be useful. It's also road speed capable.
It's being marketed as a lifestyle accessory, not a work truck.
mrngld 3 hours ago [-]
The towing/payload capacity I wish was a little higher. My family Odyssey actually has a 1500lb greater towing capacity. The times I wish I had a truck are occasionally for oversized material, but more often a situation where I wish I could just pull a decent trailer or have a half ton of material or whatever dumped in a bed.
The Slate pickup can be configured differently and has uses beyond that, I'm sure Slate did market research to arrive at the compromises it did, but it's a legitimate point for some.
fooqux 5 hours ago [-]
It depends on your market and your work, but it would be hard I think to work out of a truck with ~200 mile range. Maybe when charging vastly improves in both speed and availability...
officeplant 2 hours ago [-]
I work out of a Ford E-Transit with 110-135 miles of range while living in an area with fairly poor DC fast charging coverage. You learn to live with it and plan accordingly.
gilbetron 5 hours ago [-]
They seem to be shipping - my friend sat and drove one owned by a person that claims to have received their shipment, and not a test model.
ourmandave 17 hours ago [-]
You want the Toyota IMV0, 2L inline 4, manual, bolt-on-anything-frame. $10k.
In 1993 I bought a manual transmission Chevy S-10 pickup for a hair under 10 grand, the first new vehicle I ever bought. I think the only upgrades it had over base model were the stereo had a CD player, it had AC, which was a requirement in Texas, and it came with floor mats. Indexed to inflation that's, what, about $23k-24k? If that vehicle existed they'd fill every rural high school parking lot in the South. The closest thing to the form factor is the Jeep Gladiator, but it costs about double that. The rest of the "small" trucks in the US are closer to the size of the Silverado/F150 of that era than to the S-10/Ranger.
The REO Trucks might fill this niche, if they turn out not to be vaporware.
I was interested because I thought we might be talking about an EV, noticed its not. Isn't Ford working on a cheaper light pickup? This seems like it'd compete against more capable options on the used market? $25k for a conventional truck doesn't seem to be any sort of revolution. Conventionally powered cars are a place where I do give the edge to incumbents; they've spent many decades accumulating institutional knowledge on how to design, build, optimize and maintain those systems.
EV's are different, the power trains there are something a 10yr old can understand. But even in EV land, Tesla spent quite a few years learning things Toyota and GM and the likes had learned half a century earlier about how cars work in the real world. Why the roll the dice at $25k for a conventional vehicle from a no name brand?
If I'm just missing the USP feel free to tell me I'm a dummy.
rpmisms 2 hours ago [-]
Because ICE vehicles are a solved problem, and the used market is finite. If you want a small truck that's built to be a truck, you don't have options anymore. If the REO is as advertised (which is essentially a remake of the 2003-era Tacoma), I'll be able to do any job in the service manual myself with under $100 of tools.
EVs don't make sense for trucks, especially trucks that will do actual work. I love my Tesla, but I know what it's meant for, and work ain't it.
jumpkick 18 hours ago [-]
This is super cool. But for better or worse I have an instant aversion to short punchy sentences because they read like AI whether they are or not, e.g. "The T4X by the numbers, from the lineup brief. Stock is the base build; Ransom is the off-road package, available at launch."
rpmisms 17 hours ago [-]
Agreed. I appreciate that they're actually executing so far (as far as anyone can tell). CEO is answering questions in discord. All the math seems to math, nothing seems impossible yet.
rafram 16 hours ago [-]
> $25, refundable. A place in line, not an order.
Yeah, it’s a safe bet.
rpmisms 16 hours ago [-]
It's a bet I'm extremely happy to make.
dwaltrip 4 hours ago [-]
It’s incredible how distinct the stench is… shudders
rpmisms 3 hours ago [-]
I'm curious to see how much of the engineering is AI-boosted. Can one designer do a full production-ready interior solo?
ryukoposting 18 hours ago [-]
This [1] is up there with all the 82-0 clones for the most vibe-coded thing I've come across in a non-professional context.
The type of customer looking for a practical cheap truck won't take kindly to a bunch of silhouette photos and a brand nobody's ever heard of. For the subset who have a good mental radar for AI slop, this whole website just looks like a scam.
Designs come out on Monday. Here's hoping I'm driving one in two years.
ryukoposting 15 hours ago [-]
Godspeed. In my eyes, until proven otherwise they're Nikola for a less scrupulous target market.
rpmisms 11 hours ago [-]
Except that the technology is straight out of the 90s. The only challenges here are manufacturing and marketing.
standeven 13 hours ago [-]
A slate pickup comes close. 5’ bed instead of 6’, and an electric motor and battery which are probably more reliable and robust than any gas motor and manual transmission.
shrubble 18 hours ago [-]
Nissan Frontier has a six foot bed in the two door version; but like almost every vehicle in the USA, ships with an automatic transmission.
helterskelter2 17 hours ago [-]
Drop the two seater req and you'd probably have a market. Those 10 speed automatics are nice for hauling heavy shit long diatances I guess but every pickup owner I know misses the the stick for various reasons.
Hell, throw in a split shift from a big rig and make trucking a skill again. All of the gears, none of the tears.
anamax 14 hours ago [-]
It's not just the length of the bed. The width counts too.
Can you lay a 4x8-foot sheet of plywood flat on the bed?
MobiusHorizons 13 hours ago [-]
I actually can in my 1995 Suzuki carry (kei truck). It’ll stick off the end of the bed because the bed is a bit over 6 feet not 8, but the bed is completely flat, no wheel arches. And the whole truck is no longer than a modern hatchback, it just packages it aggressively. It is truly an amazingly practical vehicle.
27183 4 hours ago [-]
I was also looking for a truck meeting your list of specs and eventually got a 1998 Dodge Ram 2500 2 door with a 12V Cummins. It needed a new transmission, which I upgraded to Midwest Transmission Center's NV5000, a new clutch, a new harmonic balancer, coolant flush, accessory belt, water pump, rear pinion seal, front pinion seal, front axle seals, center axle disconnect repair, some body work, and a new interior. And new tires. I've almost got it 100% now, and it's great. Initially I was looking for a smaller Tacoma or the old style Tundra, but I'm glad I went with the Dodge. It's only a bit bigger but like twice as capable. And it gets roughly the same fuel economy, albeit with more expensive fuel.
RickJWagner 18 hours ago [-]
Almost described the Slate EV truck. No manual transmission needed, though.
adregan 18 hours ago [-]
With a bed a far cry from the minimum 6 footer asked for.
ryukoposting 17 hours ago [-]
My family (consisting of truck buyers in middle america) is generally going to balk at anything shorter than an 8 foot bed. That's the standard length for most building materials. Lumber, drywall, sheetrock, you name it.
Conduit and pipe tend to come in 10 ft lengths, which only hang out the back of an 8 ft bed a little, but are a real touch-and-go experience with shorter beds.
If a manufacturer doesn't offer an 8 ft bed, what they're selling probably isn't a work truck.
Marsymars 16 hours ago [-]
I wouldn't get it if I were, say, a drywall installer, but my Maverick worked perfectly well for supplies for refinishing part of my basement. 4x8 sheets fit flat on top of the wheel arches with the tailgate half down.
10 ft pipes I can put through the rear window... would be nice if some short-bed trucks came with bed access like the Chevy Avalanche.
ryukoposting 15 hours ago [-]
Well that's what I said, isn't it. A work truck. A truck you use as part of your work. Short beds are fine for folks like you and me who use the bed only occasionally.
Does the Maverick have a bed extender? My Subaru Baja had one and it was a godsend.
Marsymars 15 hours ago [-]
> Does the Maverick have a bed extender?
It does, but it's never really made sense for my use. I use the bed frequently, but like 95% of the time I don't need the tailgate down, and for the times I do, I keep some ratchet straps in the back seat.
ryukoposting 13 hours ago [-]
Yeah, that's what I did with my Baja. I actually just left the straps (and a snow shovel) in the bed. People are surprisingly not dicks, never had any of that stuff stolen.
I used the bed extender a lot, though. Moving furniture, beds, a moped, you name it.
SOLAR_FIELDS 58 minutes ago [-]
I feel like a tonneau cover does help with theft, even if it's not secured at all, there's a significant difference between walking past a truck and grabbing something out of a bed and undoing a tonneau cover to grab something.
Tonneau covers also slightly help with drag, offering slightly better mileage for fuel.
The only tricky thing with tonneau covers is finding a solution that doesn't impede your bed usage. I used a vinyl one for years that simply clamped on and removing it was a 30 second job to undo clamps and throw the folded up cover into the bed alongside the cargo when you needed the full bed length. There are some more integrated solutions that are a bit more aesthetically pleasing which have the downside of hampering your full usage of the bed unless they are removed (often the first half meter or so closest to the cab becomes unavailable using these solutions) - and removing them is way more of a pain in the ass than undoing a couple of clamps.
cityofdelusion 17 hours ago [-]
Honestly an 8ft bed is a luxury. Most building material moves fine in a short bed. Pipe rack or a trailer if you are really needing that stuff on the daily. A lot easier to unload the trailer for any significant load.
cucumber3732842 6 hours ago [-]
The constraints fail because they're dumb and outdated.
I own the same Ranger and my employer has a Maverick. They're functionally interchangable. Yeah the bed is theoretically shorter but they make it up in depth and IIRC it's wider. The stupid tailgate trick is fine for sheet goods and lumber. Stand them on edge if they're too heavy for that.
Modern automatics are "good enough"
I know all the ignorant fanboys are gonna screech about body on frame because they're idiots, but there's really no reason for a vehicle this light to need to be this light when you've got Sprinter vans and Toyota Highlanders (to pick two models specifically chosen to appeal to their brand of ignorance) rolling around just fine.
27183 3 hours ago [-]
> I know all the ignorant fanboys are gonna screech about body on frame because they're idiots
Idiot here o/. One very good reason to prefer a frame vehicle for a truck, besides the obvious (ruggedness, corrosion resistance, etc) is that you can more easily swap in components from heavier duty vehicles. It's not that big a project to put a real truck transmission (e.g. Eaton 9spd) in my 1998 Dodge. It would be a huge project to do it in a modern unibody vehicle. Light duty automotive transmissions do not hold up under the kinds of loads trucks put on them when they're actually being used at capacity.
Also it would be lunacy to attempt heavy towing or snow plowing without a frame.
If you just need a rolling box to move light loads of lumber around, towing a utility trailer behind your car is probably a better option than a unibody pickup truck. If you actually need a truck, I can't imagine why you'd want one without a frame.
cucumber3732842 2 hours ago [-]
I was expecting the Toyota version of your comment.
>Light duty automotive transmissions do not hold up under the kinds of loads trucks put on them when they're actually being used at capacity.
It's not 1995. They're fine. They'll wear out sooner but they're fine. 200k instead of 300k. By virtue of being able to handle lead footed stoplight to stoplight driving the transmission, cooling, etc, etc, is in pretty good shape to handle the sizes and speeds of things you'd want to tow with a Maverick. Nobody is hammering down in a Maverick towing god knows how much up a grade or plowing so it really doesn't matter. Towing loads on the body are essentially a non-issue since every modern hitch is engineered well enough to spread the load enough the vehicle can handle it.
As far as suspension goes they handle ~2k in the bed just fine (done it) so there's some implied capacity for tongue weight there even if it's not 1:1. I can't speak to the Hyundai Santa Cruz.
> It's not that big a project to put a real truck transmission (e.g. Eaton 9spd) in my 1998 Dodge.
It would be the exact same sized project in a unibody vehicle that used a longitudinal transmission. But you wouldn't have the easy button of just doing a body lift to make things fit, you'd actually need to dick with the tunnel and firewall and whatnot to do it the right way.
Regardless, that's not a use case the OEM needs to support.
>If you just need a rolling box to move light loads of lumber around, towing a utility trailer behind your car is probably a better option than a unibody pickup truck. If you actually need a truck, I can't imagine why you'd want one without a frame.
A utility trailer works fine if you don't actually need to do anything on short notice. You never have them when you need them. Backing them into dumb spaces can be a pain. The threshold at which things need to be tied down is lower. It's just not as elegant of a solution as a pickup box.
jojobas 19 hours ago [-]
Isn't the smallest Ranger 2x heavier for maybe 1.3x payload? It's almost as far from kei trucks philosophically as one can get.
jyoung8607 18 hours ago [-]
Haven't done the math, but the era of Ranger that comment spoke of would be much smaller than the Ranger sold today. Think more like the old Chevy S10, or the upcoming Slate truck. Not quite kei, but getting there.
tmnvix 16 hours ago [-]
> Not quite kei, but getting there.
From a US perspective I guess. Here in NZ, the 2011 Ford Ranger was already amongst the largest and tallest vehicles on the road (excluding actual trucks and buses of course).
rtkwe 1 hours ago [-]
The painful part of this version is it's limited to 25 mph to meet the low speed vehicle requirements to pass crash safety which most imported Kei trucks aren't due to their age bypassing a lot of requirements. That by itself might nearly kill it unless there's an easy way to bypass the governor, which will probably be software based these days.
JTbane 1 hours ago [-]
>it's limited to 25 mph
Hard no from me, that's a golf cart, not a truck.
rtkwe 30 minutes ago [-]
It's useful in the same context a gator or kubota UTV are with the benefit of being road legal where the others aren't. Hopefully it's easy to flash the firmware though and that can just be stripped out entirely.
ErroneousBosh 24 minutes ago [-]
"Limited" to 25mph, I think they meant.
stronglikedan 3 hours ago [-]
> it has a limited top speed of less than 25mph and is only legal on roads with a posted speed limit of less than 35mph.
Dealbreaker. Too bad they couldn't get it legal on 45mph or less. It would literally open up 99% of non-highway routes.
elmean 3 hours ago [-]
> "Engineers tell us they baked this into the engine's computer, and a simple "cut the wire" trick won't unlock highway speeds."
New benchmark just dropped
RankingMember 2 hours ago [-]
Disable ABS via fuse to prevent odd behavior due to what you're about to do, then: install different tone wheels with less frequent valleys/rises (or intercept and manipulate the signal before returning to the ECU), done. Hacky and will ruin your odometer accuracy, but there ya go. :P
rtkwe 1 hours ago [-]
Or the more likely solution, blast a custom firmware into the ECU without the baked in governor. I imagine that will be out there within weeks of these being released in the US.
ilamont 20 hours ago [-]
25 mph works for golf courses, resort, or island use. In rural areas on the mainland, roads connecting towns often have 45 or 55 mph speed limits so unless you plan on staying on the farm I don't think these are practical for trips to go shopping, dumping, hauling, etc.
As for the imports, I saw one of these 90s-era right-hand drive kei trucks at a parking lot a few months ago and talked with the owner. He was a young guy who lived in Boston, said it was super easy to park. Speed maxed out at 70 mph, which is fine for local trips but maybe not for long highway trips.
For people in jurisdictions that allow 30 year old truck imports, and are interested in getting one, there are other countries that use such trucks and have left-hand drive. Taiwan has models from CMC and Suzuki, and I believe South Korea also makes them.
ryukoposting 17 hours ago [-]
I think that's exactly what Toyota envisions: it's a farm/groundskeeping truck. That's why tons of them already get imported to the US. These aren't competing with cars, they're competing with Gators [1]
I know a kid who drove his tractor to school once in a while, it topped out at ~20. If dad had the truck and mom had the car, what else was he gonna do? Using a low-speed vehicle in a pinch is not a new idea to these trucks' target customers. Having such a vehicle but with A/C and airbags is probably a huge selling point, actually.
We have an old Kei truck on our farm, with HVAC though no airbags. The only reason I picked it over a UTV or similar is because it is still street legal here and does around 50mph. I can comfortably take it into town around 10 miles away, pick up supplies, and drive back with a tag on the back and keeping up with traffic.
If Scion limits the top speed to 25mph it'd be useless to me for our farm. I'd still rather buy an imported Honda Acty or Suzuki Carry for the price, if I'm lucky I'd find one with a hydrolic dump bed and still be cheaper than what Scion will likely be able to sell this for.
ryukoposting 11 hours ago [-]
I suspect the price is gonna limit the retail appeal moreso than the speed. Used import trucks will probably cost less, and they're gonna do the same thing with no speed governor. An official manufacturer relationship will be appealing to fleet buyers, though.
I have zero concerns about the speed governor. That's gonna end up being a flash mod you can do yourself in your garage, I guarantee it. Worst case scenario, someone will start selling ECUs on eBay or something.
27183 3 hours ago [-]
Being a Toyota I imagine it'll be pretty easy to disable the limiter, unless it's geared such that the engine is wound out at 25mph in top gear. But that seems unlikely, given how nonstandard the parts would have to be to make it happen. my hunch is the limit is electronically imposed and will therefore be hacked in short order.
johsole 28 minutes ago [-]
On many smaller roads in more rural areas farm equipment is already allowed to drive on those roads. This obviously excludes interstate highways.
milkytron 19 hours ago [-]
Kei cars are designed for cities. These will likely be fine in dense areas on local surface streets where traffic is high.
King-Aaron 18 hours ago [-]
I drove a Suzuki SuperCarry 999cc from Albany (western australia) to Perth, around 400km. I bought it from down there and figured I'd tow it back, but I discovered when I got there that the Carry was too narrow to actually get on the car trailer.
So I drove it the whole way. It was god awful - noisy, slow, every corner felt like it was picking up the wheels and about to roll over. But it was hilarious and definitely possible to do a trip like that lol.
In California, many local surface streets have speed limits above 35mph.
throwaway2037 18 hours ago [-]
> Kei cars are designed for cities.
Really? Says who? In Japan, in rich cities, most private drivers are driving regular-sized cards, not kei cars. Some small businesses use kei trucks for deliveries. When you go to the suburbs and countryside, it is mostly kei cars and trucks because the annual registration tax is much lower than a regular car. In short: They are cheaper to own. For normie drivers in Japan, a kei car is practical. If they could afford a regular-sized car, they would probably upgrade.
freetime2 13 hours ago [-]
> If they could afford a regular-sized car, they would probably upgrade.
Cost is a major factor, but so is the convenience of driving (and parking) a car with a small foot print. Plenty of people who could afford a larger car opt to go with a kei car for that reason. My family has one large luxury car and one kei car, and for a lot of day-to-day stuff the kei car gets more use because it's more convenient to park or drive on narrow streets.
And modern kei cars like the N-Box/Tanto/Roox have gotten pretty nice and cost upwards of ¥3,000,000 with lots of bells and whistles - more than some regular cars. Definitely not luxurious by any means, but very roomy inside and well-suited to city driving and even light highway driving with a turbo.
lz400 8 hours ago [-]
This is incorrect. I live in Japan. Many people buy kei cars for cities because they're cheap, small (Tokyo streets are sometimes super narrow) and enough for city driving. Kei cars are extremely common in cities, towns and suburbs.
kadoban 13 hours ago [-]
> In Japan, in rich cities, most private drivers are driving regular-sized cards, not kei cars.
I mean, "most private drivers" in Japan is a _tiny_ subset of people, no? Isn't a large part of that basically just rich people showing off?
throwaway2037 12 hours ago [-]
Man, people are so clueless about Japan here on HN. Let me repeat what I have said so many times here before: All rich non-microstates are mostly driving except their biggest cities. And rich people in big cities mostly own cars. The urban car owner rides a train to work, but they drive on the weekends.
Yes, like most other rich countries, cars are a status symbol. Kei car/truck basically says you are middle class or below. Regular size car/van is the flex, especially German cars.
officeplant 2 hours ago [-]
> Regular size car/van is the flex, especially German cars.
Funniest thing my brother has sent me pictures of while living in Japan was a local guy in Nara who drove an imported H2 Hummer.
Karrot_Kream 12 hours ago [-]
Most Westerners visit Central Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto and think all of Japan is that way. One big difference though is Japanese families will often get in one car together while Americans can often take more than one car between adults.
SenHeng 11 hours ago [-]
Even Japanese who grew up in Tokyo seem surprised that cars are a necessity out in the smaller cities.
ButlerianJihad 11 hours ago [-]
There is more than one concept called "city driving".
In terms of fuel economy (mileage), vehicles are typically tested and rated in at least two environments:
* "City driving" which means surface road speeds and the typical stop-and-go of traffic lights, stop signs and other controls.
* "Highway driving" which means, sustained speeds 55mph+ without the stop-and-go. This category is usually judged more efficient, especially for ICE vehicles.
Now, there may be other design considerations, such as "city vs. rural" if they're manufacturing tractors and combines vs. sports cars. And categories beyond these I've already mentioned. So when we say the vehicle is "designed for cities", do we mean that all of these boxes have been checked? Because in terms of fuel economy, "city driving" and "highway driving" both happen in cities.
hogehoge51 16 hours ago [-]
> Kei cars are designed for cities.
1. The article is about kei trucks, not kei cars. different things.
2. Kei is Japanese regulatory category designed for Japan. Japan is a country with quite a bit of non city places where kei .* are quite popular.
Alphard and Velfire are designed for cities, ideally dense areas where driving them isolates you from high traffic and the passers by you force to move out of your way.
Palanquin were probably the ideal Japanese vehicle for both city and country.
TylerE 18 hours ago [-]
Fine until they get crunched by a 6k lb Tahoe.
JoeAltmaier 18 hours ago [-]
True of most everything
TylerE 18 hours ago [-]
Not really. In something like a moderately new VW Golf you’ll likely be fine.
King-Aaron 17 hours ago [-]
( cries in NA mx5 )
cityofdelusion 16 hours ago [-]
NA Miata here in pickup truck heartland. Any other vehicle can kill you, even a Camry seems gargantuan. Just gotta drive smart and defensively. That said I’m more worried about no airbag and no roof protection way more than the type of cars around me. Gotta treat it like a 4 wheeled motorcycle.
9 hours ago [-]
King-Aaron 15 hours ago [-]
Yeah that's exactly how I drive mine, luckily it's just a weekend car so the chances of someone not seeing me while driving is reduced.
I also maintain that 'loud pipes save lives' (lol), and being bright yellow does also add a little to it's visibility on the road.
TylerE 17 hours ago [-]
Miata is always gong to be rough because in a modern unibody a lot of the strength is in the roof.
And a wheel tax that scales with weight^4 just like the road wear it causes.
DASD 18 hours ago [-]
Light compared to the new 9K lb Cadillac Escalade EV.
testing22321 18 hours ago [-]
“You should have brought a bigger gun” -Americans
codingdave 17 hours ago [-]
> unless you plan on staying on the farm
Yeah, many vehicles do stay on the farm. Some farms are also huge, so you'll see large farm equipment using the narrow back roads to move between fields. You'll see everything from huge equipment that almost blocks the road to little ATVs, all on the same roads with the cars. Everybody around here is used to being on a 45/55 mph speed limit road and coming across vehicles that cannot go that speed. It is just part of living in rural USA.
pmichaud 19 hours ago [-]
I had a "car" with a 25mph limit back in 2005 or so, and it was awesome for my inner city living. I barely used my "real" car during the years I had it.
ghtbircshotbe 4 hours ago [-]
The farmers in their tractors and the Amish in their buggies don't seem to mind going slow on the county highways. Send like this one is legally not allowed on the highway though
voxelghost 13 hours ago [-]
>25 mph works for golf courses ...
Well thats a regulatory issue in the US. Without load, the truck without limiter will hapily do 50mph, and less happily 60+, although it might take you some time to get there.
stackghost 19 hours ago [-]
These Kei trucks are everywhere where I live (PNW). They seem like the ideal utility vehicle for city centres if you don’t need seating and are just hauling e.g. soil or bins or something.
throwaway2037 18 hours ago [-]
I assume they are imports from Japan? If so, have they done any work on the body to make them safer in an accident?
King-Aaron 17 hours ago [-]
Just don't crash and they're perfectly fine
throwaway2037 14 hours ago [-]
I am unsure if this is sarcasm. As I understand, if you import a kei car/truck from Japan, it is not road-ready according to federal guidelines. There is some minor work that needs to be done. There are a bunch of YouTube videos that explain the rules and process.
King-Aaron 11 hours ago [-]
> I am unsure if this is sarcasm
I'm unsure if you're serious. But yeah, sarcasm. All cars are safe until you crash them.
taurusnoises 18 hours ago [-]
How much soil can a Kei truck handle with a 600lb payload. A single cubic yard of soil can weigh up to 2k lbs. Unless we're talking tiny trips to the farm supply store for a few bags, this ain't gonna handle much.
freetime2 15 hours ago [-]
That 600 lb payload is likely the legal rating - which is a limit the government imposes on kei trucks rather than what the truck is actually capable of. A bit like the "gentleman's agreement" by Japanese automakers in the past to limit JDM cars to 276 HP that was, in reality, a lie. [1]
Daihatsu sells an "agriculture special" model Hijet with a special suspension that can carry far than 600 lbs [2]. During harvesting season, it's typical to see them hauling around full sacks of freshly-harvested rice which can weigh up to 750 kg [3]. A lot of the kei trucks that get imported to the US are probably these agriculture models.
The penalties for exceeding the weight limit can actually be pretty severe. But it seems police turn a blind eye to farmers making short, low-speed trips to the processing plant on rural public roads.
I ordered 1 yard of soil and loaded 30 of the 60 bags. It was a short trip but it did fine.
For scale, 30bags filled it to the top of the bed almost exactly. It was also really wet im sure I was pushing well over 1k lbs
newsclues 18 hours ago [-]
Enough for small landscaping jobs.
stackghost 18 hours ago [-]
> How much soil can a Kei truck handle with a 600lb payload.
Probably about 600 lbs of soil. Nobody in the city is going to “farm supply stores”, whatever those are. If you live on a gigantic lot out in the boonies then by all means take your gigantic lifted dodge ram
iamnothere 5 hours ago [-]
You should look up if your city has a “mulch yard” that produces and sells mulch. Many do, and it’s much cheaper than the bagged stuff. But it does come in bulk loads.
Some cities even give away mulch at recycling/compost centers.
JoeAltmaier 18 hours ago [-]
Well, depends on the city. A popular chain in Iowa is 'Tractor Supply', in most towns. They have everything.
ghostly_s 18 hours ago [-]
Iowa has exactly one city.
wiredfool 2 hours ago [-]
That’s why they call it Iowa City.
Marsymars 16 hours ago [-]
> Probably about 600 lbs of soil. Nobody in the city is going to “farm supply stores”, whatever those are.
Eh I live in the city and last time I had 1200lb of mulch delivered it came from a depot like 10 minutes away, also in the city. Could have saved $100 by picking it up myself.
taurusnoises 18 hours ago [-]
If you don't know what a farm supply store is (the PNW has got maaaany), then assessing the practicality of a truck's ability to haul soil probably isn't where you wanna start. Ps, "how much" was in reference to cubic feet. You usually don't buy soil by the pound haha.
stackghost 16 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
HeyLaughingBoy 14 hours ago [-]
FWIW, a farm supply store like Tractor Supply or Fleet Farm is not really a garden center, although they usually also carry gardening stuff. It's where you go to buy livestock feed [1], troughs, pasture seeds, tractor repair parts and some simpler implements etc.
1. Not to be confused with a feed mill which will typically only have livestock feed and in bulk for better pricing.
stackghost 14 hours ago [-]
Okay well nobody in the city is buying livestock feed or pasture seeds in sufficient quantities that won’t fit into a kei truck.
ndesaulniers 19 hours ago [-]
That's what aftermarket Turbos (sold on eBay) are for.
delfinom 18 hours ago [-]
25mph is perfect for NYC where it's now the default top speed. There is a demand for smaller delivery and service vehicles in such a tight city.
cucumber3732842 5 hours ago [-]
Have you ever actually driven in NYC? To go anywhere other than the next block you're inevitably getting on some multi-lane connector or something where the speed is very much not 25mph.
datameta 4 hours ago [-]
You can count on your hand how many roads are 30/35mph, and those are virtually quasi-highways. Major roads like Ocean Parkway (bisects Brooklyn), Queens Blvd, Atlantic Ave, Pelham Parkway are all 25mph. You can very much get anywhere outside of Staten Island capped at 25mph.
cucumber3732842 2 hours ago [-]
There's a million interstate and state highways that criss cross the NYC area and you inevitably wind up on any given one for half a mile or something. When it's busy 25 is probably fine but there's also a lot of time when it's not.
6DM 20 hours ago [-]
With a built in 25mph limiter, that eliminates "city" driving too unfortunately. Most roads around me are 35 mph.
There's sizeable demand for people who want to be able to do runs to the bigbox stores for garden and DIY renovation supplies and store it the rest of the time.
bryanlarsen 20 hours ago [-]
You need to complain to your congressman, not to Toyota. The 25mph limit is set by the Low Speed Vehicle standards.
gwbas1c 3 hours ago [-]
The bigger question is: why does the truck need to be a Low Speed Vehicle?
Other commenters in this thread explain that they own Kei imports and drive them faster.
malfist 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
chowells 20 hours ago [-]
Because they can't bear to make vehicles smaller. That's the real terror on American roads. Something like 60% of vehicles are huge because it makes the driver feel better. And indeed, it makes the driver safer in a collision - at the cost of making everyone else in the area less safe. Something has to be done to stop this trend first and foremost.
After that, when vehicle sizes start trending down towards reasonable, we can look at getting speeds up without reducing overall safety.
jnellis 19 hours ago [-]
I think the reason trucks are so huge these days is not the ride feel. It's the EPA gives more lenient pollution restrictions based on size of vehicle. So instead of making the engine less polluting, just make the truck bigger and keep the same engine. It's like a cereal box that's only 1/3 full.
The idea to introduce light trucks in passenger-car shape to get around pollution limits was the car manufacturers' idea. However, the US public ran with it and bought because of the perceived higher safety and social status that comes with driving a larger, heavier vehicle than everyone else. And they continue to buy to attempt to one-up each other even though the pollution limits now apply to SUVs as well as smaller passenger cars.
hdndjsbbs 17 hours ago [-]
My understanding was that the American domestic auto manufacturers were getting their asses beat by foreign competitors who made much better cars. American companies could differentiate themselves with giant vehicles that wouldn't be practical in Europe or Asia. But because the giant vehicles became status symbols the low end started imitating them and now nobody sells cars in the US any more.
bob1029 12 hours ago [-]
It's definitely a blend. I bought something HN would melt down over mostly due to the ride quality. I can drive from Houston to El Paso and not feel it.
I don't buy cars based on their pollution capabilities like some Captain Planet villain. Maybe other consumers are different.
intrasight 19 hours ago [-]
And you can expense a >6000lb vehicle
LastTrain 18 hours ago [-]
You might be the last person on earth that believes this is about safety. The rules are protectionism to keep cheap/affordable vehicles out of the US. Those rules and setion 179 bonus depreciation on large cars are what are keeping the American auto industry alive without having to actually compete.
bryanlarsen 20 hours ago [-]
Low-speed vehicles are essentially golf carts. Do you expect golf carts to be safe at 65 mph?
malfist 19 hours ago [-]
If they want to go 65mph, yes I expect them to be safe.
bryanlarsen 4 hours ago [-]
Some quad bikes can go at speeds close to that, and they are insanely dangerous.
bombcar 19 hours ago [-]
Will classify them as motorcycles
bryanlarsen 19 hours ago [-]
Yes, the other option Toyota had was to classify then as UTV's, like quad bikes and gators. No speed limit, but not street legal either.
They should probably do that: sell a variant without doors and with knobby tires as a UTV.
80fj0348i 17 hours ago [-]
UTVs can be plated as street legal in a lot of states, so that might be more useful for some people.
schiffern 19 hours ago [-]
Note that LSVs are allowed on roads with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less.
Whether you feel safe doing so is a separate question, of course.
This is what bothers me about this category of vehicles. There's not good line between a city car and a general purpose vehicle. You either get dangerously slow toy or a full 2-5 ton piece of heavy machinery. If you could get something like this or the Fiat Topolino[1] that could be restricted to, say, 35-45 mile roads, it would be a very different story and much more appealing.
I often ride my ebike at 28 MPH (max legal ebike speed in US) on a street with a 25 MPH speed limit and I'll regularly get cars tailgating me honking and crossing the double line to pass.
WillPostForFood 18 hours ago [-]
You aren't getting honked at because you are going too slow, you are getting honked at because you are blocking the lane with your bike.
wffurr 3 hours ago [-]
Why does "blocking the lane with a bike" matter in the slightest? Maybe some people see that as a personal affront because they think the road belongs to cars?
It's only "blocking" because the drivers think the bike is too slow. Which is because they want to break the law themselves and speed dangerously. It's pretty bogus.
Manuel_D 18 hours ago [-]
Blocking the lane by going a few miles an hour above the speed limit?
ghostly_s 18 hours ago [-]
Bikes have equal rights to lanes as cars. Learn the law.
cucumber3732842 5 hours ago [-]
He could be riding an elephant and it wouldn't matter. The bare legal minimum is not the standard for what constitutes good behavior He'd being dis-courteous to other road users. He shouldn't complain when some of them let him know.
Regardless of his mode of transit if he's going below the prevailing speed and avoiding taking opportunities to let others pass (which the form factor of his vehicle makes especially plentiful in this case) he deserves to hear about it in a not nice way.
Not that it's applicable here but it's doubly true so if he could simply go faster and conform to traffic norms but chooses not to (this is why a speed limit following Prius catches more shit than a laden truck that can only go that fast).
fhn 17 hours ago [-]
how are they blocking when they are going 28 in a 25. Speed limits exist for a reason.
throwaway173738 4 hours ago [-]
It’s the same old “rules for thee but not for me” thinking that’s pervasive in some circles.
DoctorOW 20 hours ago [-]
American here, in practice no. They are generally only the upper bound for dense neighborhood streets, throughout most other roadways you will be considered a poor driver if you go lower than the speed limit.
0x1ch 20 hours ago [-]
The city of Tacoma, WA recently implemented new ALPR ticketing systems to enforce speed limits in northern Tacoma. They received so many hits, they had to build out a new system akin to a lottery for sending ticket / infraction notices.
To me, that seems like the city is entrapping its citizens to make up for a lack of revenue, when the data clearly shows the speed limit should probably be adjusted. But no, they move to develop a lottery system to send the infractions.
bryanlarsen 20 hours ago [-]
Speed limit cameras are highly effective at slowing cars down. They were recently removed in Ontario, and the average road speed increased substantially. The pedestrian death counts spiked in both Toronto and Ottawa this year. This is likely not a coincidence.
0x1ch 20 hours ago [-]
But did Toronto and Ottawa have to develop a lottery system to enforce the new systems due to capacity issues? Over the course of a month, it was over 400k infractions captured... 40MPH road.
The only reason for the speed to trend downwards is the increasing threat of a ticket from an automated system that cannot be reasoned with. A real cop generally isn't going to ticket me for going 5, maybe even 10 over a posted 40MPH zone unless they fished me for something else during the the stop. Flow of traffic is everything.
bryanlarsen 19 hours ago [-]
Almost all of the cameras were in front of school zones. 10 mph over in a school zone would definitely result in a ticket here. 5mph likely wouldn't, but the speed cameras didn't issue for 5 over either.
The cameras in Ontario issued an order of magnitude fewer tickets than yours. The highest volume cameras issued about 100 a day.
0x1ch 19 hours ago [-]
Yeah, 10mph over in a school zone is absurd. The issue I'm referring to are literally TWO speed cameras on common city corridors, non school zones.
The lottery system they're building to support the capacity issue is going to calculate weights based on the most egregious speeders, which I guess is nice...
t-3 17 hours ago [-]
What also works without needing a huge bureaucracy and fining people regularly is electronic speed detectors that display your speed and flash at you when you're going above the speed limit.
bryanlarsen 16 hours ago [-]
We've got those everywhere. Everybody ignores them. They're probably one of those many things that work while they're new, but stop working after people acclimatize.
iamnothere 5 hours ago [-]
The trick is to occasionally (on an unpredictable schedule) put a police cruiser in the same vicinity if the average speed creeps up too much. This turns the readout into a legitimate warning. When you put them out without enforcement then everyone learns to ignore them.
bryanlarsen 5 hours ago [-]
Police regularly giving speeding tickets lowers road speeds. If the police regularly hang out at speed indicators, then people will learn that and only slow down at the indicators. OTOH, with regular enforcement and without the speed indicators people will slow down everywhere. I'd rather have people slow down everywhere.
iamnothere 4 hours ago [-]
I don’t think I said that you shouldn’t also put police elsewhere, did I? Did I say that?
t-3 16 hours ago [-]
They work on me and drivers around me. I regularly see people dropping their speed and being more mindful on roads with them.
Manuel_D 19 hours ago [-]
Entrapment means the government induced the illegal behavior. An ALPR speed cam doesn't induce anyone to speed. Its not entrapment, just drive the speed limit and you won't get tickets.
idle_zealot 19 hours ago [-]
It's the road design, not the cameras, that are entrapment. Or maybe it's most accurate to say it's both together. We understand how people drive on different kinds of roads and choose to build ones where people will go fast, then make going fast illegal. We know that mere illegality doesn't stop approximately everyone from speeding. We know how wide lanes and long stretches of straight road interact with human psychology.
SamBam 15 hours ago [-]
This is the difference between Design Speed and Posted Speed.
I remember twenty years ago flying into someplace in Florida and finally getting my rental car on the road at 2 AM. At a certain point I was on what was, to me growing up in New England, the equivalent of a divided six-lane highway.
I open up because no one the was on the road, and immediately get blue flashing lights in my mirrors.
Turns out this "six lane highway" was considered the equivalent of a back alleyway and the speed limit was 35.
Manuel_D 17 hours ago [-]
Nothing about road design forces people to drive fast. People can drive at 5 mph along a perfectly straight road. They're speeding because they're impatient, not because there is something about road design that forces drivers to exceed the speed limit.
amiga386 17 hours ago [-]
This isn't true. Road design imparts a psychological effect on the driver, and in some countries this is in their design standards. See for example the UK's Manual for Streets 1, 7.4 "Achieving appropriate traffic speeds" (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...)
You can slow people down by making lanes thinner, adding in-road obstacles or chicanes, removing road markings to take drivers out of their complacency and get them actively thinking, and at the slowdown at the end of a road, using tightly packed lines or rumble strips to give the impression of speed, to which they naturally react by slowing down. You also stagger junctions, and put in bends, rather than have a fast road run directly onto a slow one (or vice-versa) and then say to yourself "WELL, I DID MY PART, I MADE A NICE FAST ROAD SLAM RIGHT INTO A SLOW ONE, AND IT'S ENTIRELY ON THE DRIVERS TO NOTICE THAT STOP SIGN AND SLOW DOWN IN TIME. NOT MY PROBLEM IF THEY DON'T"
Naturally, if you do the opposite, and build a wide, long, straight road with few visual indications of how fast people are going, even the most conscientious will likely zone out and start unintentionally speeding up. It's simple human psychology.
You can't be like "human psychology's not a thing, I'll judge every single human like they're completely omniscient and perfectly rational", because there are millions of people who unintentionally do things they don't rationally want to do, every single day, because they were psychologically manipulated. Use road design to manipulate them into doing the right thing, rather than manipulate them into doing the wrong thing and then directly take money from them. That's a dark pattern.
Manuel_D 16 hours ago [-]
Sure, if someone is used to going 70 on the highway then they drive to Oregon where speed limits max out at 55 then yeah they'll probably speed if they drive carelessly. But that's ultimately still the responsibility of the driver to obey the speed limit.
This is not remotely close to entrapment.
amiga386 14 hours ago [-]
I wasn't claiming anything was entrapment, I was taking up your claim that "Nothing about road design forces people to drive fast."
Indeed, nothing forces, but road designs really strongly suggest through the use of psychology. The mafioso didn't force you to be a drug mule when he said he'd murder your family if you didn't. The website didn't force you to let them sell your data when they put in giant bold letters "AGREE AND ENTER" and in 5 point grey on grey "decline" -- after the website's owners ran multiple rounds A/B testing to see what was most effective at getting people to click the option that gives them free money. They didn't force you, it's all your choice buddy. You feel tricked or conned? Like you were carefully goaded into making a choice against your best interest? Well, you shouldha read the small print, sucker!
Anyway, I don't think these things are "entrapment" (meaning the police coerce you into breaking a law you wouldn't otherwise have broken), but they are sketchy, especially if the organisation in charge of enforcement also gets a cut of the fines.
> Brookside "recognizes" that its "policy of aggressive policing," which "prioritized generating revenue for the department's expansion," "likely interfered with the Town's obligation to administer justice equally under law," "undermined the public's trust in the justice system," and "raised serious constitutional concerns under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment."
Manuel_D 14 hours ago [-]
> Indeed, nothing forces, but road designs really strongly suggest through the use of psychology. The mafioso didn't force you to be a drug mule when he said he'd murder your family if you didn't.
Uh, yeah it is? This is literally textbook coercion through threat of murder. I'm not sure how this is relevant to people who don't pay attention to speed limits and speed, though.
Also, the example in your linked article isn't even related to speed limits:
> According to the lawsuit, Coleman "was following three or four car lengths behind" her boyfriend's car. But Sellers claimed she was "tailgating." He also claimed to smell marijuana, which supposedly justified ordering Coleman out of her car and handcuffing her.
stfp 13 hours ago [-]
Traffic engineers, road designers, and car makers deserve a lot of the blame and should be held accountable.
You keep designing deadly streets and roads that encourage speeding, you keep producing and marketing bigger and bigger more dangerous vehicles... Ads about power and speed... And then turn around and blame people as being solely responsible?
No, the overall system is a direct cause of crashes and deaths as well.
cucumber3732842 3 hours ago [-]
You could say that but you'd be saying it with the same amount of honesty that one could say nothing about gambling and fast food ads everywhere makes people piss their money away on sports betting while being fat.
At the societal level these things are numbers games. If you don't want people going 60 on a road don't build a road where normal conditions cause that to be a comfortable and safe speed.
throwaway173738 4 hours ago [-]
They need to change the shape of the road and add soft hit bollards if they want people to actually slow down.
mitchitized 2 hours ago [-]
American here. I don't know what a bollard is, but usage of this new word could be fun.
"Quiet down you gangly bunch of blowhard bollards!"
That just felt satisfying. If I could channel John Cleese (the indignant version of course), the above line would be perfect.
hatthew 19 hours ago [-]
> the data clearly shows the speed limit should probably be adjusted
The problem is a cultural one. Most people interpret a speed limit of N as "I should go N+10" (or something like that). If we remove speed limits, the majority of people would end up driving at unsafe speeds. People will always break speed limits unless they are set at that unsafe level.
nkrisc 19 hours ago [-]
And the solution is to build the roads such that going over the speed limit feels dangerous.
Make roads narrower. Add more bends and lateral shifts. Plant trees along the road to obstruct sight lines. Build roads so that only speeds below the speed limit are safe on them and people will travel below the speed limit.
cowgoesmoo 19 hours ago [-]
I don't think that's true. When I was in Montana, where the limit is 80mph on freeways, there were very few people going faster than the limit.
hatthew 18 hours ago [-]
I feel like 80mph is not a particularly safe speed. Everything is relative though.
linksnapzz 18 hours ago [-]
On I-90 in the middle of eastern MT? 110 is a perfectly reasonable (albeit illegal) speed.
bombcar 19 hours ago [-]
Not true people drive what they feel the safe limit of the road to be. You can easily devise a road that has 55 mile an hour speed limit and no one will go over 35.
foobarian 19 hours ago [-]
The speed limits are a useful safety signal. If I suddenly see a 30mph limit in a 50mph zone, usually it's because of upcoming curves and it likely not safe to continue at 65mph.
conductr 18 hours ago [-]
Unless it’s a blind curve then it takes no time to adjust to the conditions on your own And it comes naturally. I say this as someone that just drives as fast as I want and don’t usually attempt to adhere to any posted sign. In cases there is a sharp/blind curve that’s when I see they usually just use the curve arrow sign to warn me and so I know to pay a bit more attention and make sure I am ready and able to adjust my speed if actually needed. I almost never adjust just because I see a sign.
Marsymars 16 hours ago [-]
It tends to be more economical to adjust in advance so that you don't have to use non-regen brakes. (Or any brakes, in a pure ICE.)
conductr 16 hours ago [-]
It’s not always required. I rarely brake at all on an open road, except for stops and if something else is physically in my way.
If if the conditions actually require it, that’s when I brake. Not because a sign told me too when I may not actually need to. I feel that’s probably the most economical option.
conductr 18 hours ago [-]
Most people drive at a comfortable speed for the road and conditions with little regard for the posted limits. Most studies I’ve read, sorry not going to look them up to cite, say speed limit should match the human level. Not some imaginary forced number that the DOT came up with on a spreadsheet.
dmitrygr 19 hours ago [-]
> If we remove speed limits, the majority of people would end up driving at unsafe speeds.
(particularly section 2 "Limitations of the 85th Percentile Rule for Setting Speed Limits")
I'll admit that "the majority" could be an overstatement, perhaps I should have said "enough people to be dangerous"
anigbrowl 19 hours ago [-]
Why do you think speed limits were introduced in the first place
TylerE 18 hours ago [-]
Problem is ma t of those limits were set for cars with horrible bias-ply tires and drum brakes. In modern cars that can easily traverse those roads at 20 or 30mph over they feel assinine.
I would be totally fine fine with speed limits being actual, enforced, no wiggle room limits, IF the actual limits were reasonable in the first place. This would mean most interstates outside of built up areas being posted at 80-90mph, say .
bombcar 19 hours ago [-]
I mean, isn’t that the idea? That people will be bad unless you give them citations?
dmitrygr 19 hours ago [-]
My neighbors could steal my packages. They do not. Not all people will be bad if not micromanaged, some people are just nice.
seanmcdirmid 20 hours ago [-]
25 mph limits abound in Seattle and hardly anyone bothers with following them. The only way they are going to ever enforce that is with speed cameras since we also don't have enough police to even deal with violent crime, let alone with traffic violations.
t-3 17 hours ago [-]
Where I live, speed limits are regularly reviewed and set higher or lower based on collected data about safety, traffic patterns, and average speeds. Red-light camera auto-ticketing isn't allowed either.
stfp 13 hours ago [-]
I think we need to stick with it for a while. After getting a fine or two most people will adjust and start treating the speed limit as the upper bound.
Agree that the lottery is silly though. I would give people a free hit a year. You get a warning saying, this one is free if you don't break the limit again. If you do, pay both fines.
Also index the fines to income.
We can kill speeding. It's just a matter of resolve and time. It'd save a lot of lives.
jelloroll42 19 hours ago [-]
Lol driver preference should have nothing to do with it. Cars are the biggest threat to public safety everywhere and making people slow down is a good thing.
anigbrowl 19 hours ago [-]
I prefer that people drive under the speed limit actually.
rizzom5000 20 hours ago [-]
Considered a poor driver, and you can be ticketed for impeding traffic. I'd guess you are also more likely to undergo a field sobriety test if and when that time comes.
littlecranky67 18 hours ago [-]
Not an expert of US jurisdiction, but how can you be ticketed for impeding traffic when your car does not go faster than 25mph? If you can't go faster due to technical restrictions, there is not intent - hence no ticket. Unless you were not allowed to drive that vehicle there or the road has a minimum speed requirement (highways probably).
anigbrowl 19 hours ago [-]
No ticket issued for staying within the speed limit (absent some obvious emergency) is going to stand up in court.
WillPostForFood 18 hours ago [-]
What about 25 on the freeway where the speed limit is 85?
appointment 18 hours ago [-]
A lot of states have a minimum speed limit of around 40 mph on freeways
20 hours ago [-]
readthenotes1 20 hours ago [-]
Where I live the major strode has a 45 mph speed limit and during most times of the day we only get to 35 mph but people make up for it by running the red light
Dig1t 20 hours ago [-]
I know two people who have been pulled over in the US for driving too slow.
If you drive significantly slower than the flow of traffic it can create a hazard for other drivers.
Generally speaking, much of driving is predicting what other drivers will do. If you behave significantly differently than other cars you do raise the chances of an accident.
nkrisc 19 hours ago [-]
And yet if traffic is traveling at the speed limit and you’re going 20 MPH slower you’re a hazard.
Most cops will likely even pull you over for that.
I’ve seen more than one person try to merge onto a highway at 45 MPH and every time they very nearly caused an accident.
cucumber3732842 3 hours ago [-]
>I’ve seen more than one person try to merge onto a highway at 45 MPH and every time they very nearly caused an accident.
Speed differential based ticketing. That guy who stops on the ramp when traffic is going 60 is teeing up the same potential ~40mph accident as the guy trying to weave through the same traffic at 100.
Reverse the default rules of rear ending liability in merging zones as the cherry on top.
We really should reverse the rules of default liability for rear ending in merge zones.
I'm sure there's some kinks to iron out but I think my plan is solid.
asdff 20 hours ago [-]
Imagine how many diesel exhaust clouds this clown car going 25mph is going to be served at green lights in the bible belt of the US
lakeviewterrace 20 hours ago [-]
Uh, zero?
It's a work truck not a Prius with a Coexist sticker.
asdff 18 hours ago [-]
It fits in a compact space and that is a sin enough in these parts
JKCalhoun 20 hours ago [-]
Yeah, I see quads on Main Street in the small rural towns in the Midwaste, golf carts tearing around the 'burbs in larger cities…
benfrancom 20 hours ago [-]
I see folks going 25mph in 35mph every time I drive!
20 hours ago [-]
classictraffic 20 hours ago [-]
This would have been an instant buy for me if it weren't for the 25mph limit. That being said, I'm extremely excited by this, because it proves there is demand for Kei trucks in the US. I've done a lot of research into the import process for bringing a truck over from Japan, and I'll likely end up going that route in a year or so unless newer trucks with higher speeds get announced
pfdietz 19 hours ago [-]
I am sure someone will hack it to remove any enforced speed limit. And I'm sure Toyota will design it so that hack isn't too difficult.
mywittyname 19 hours ago [-]
> And I'm sure Toyota will design it so that hack isn't too difficult.
And that's how to get these banned.
People reflash these to remove the speed governor, then drive them on regular roads. These things hold up traffic, piss people off, who then complain to law enforcement. The police do nothing about it so the issue gets raised to state and federal legislators, who do take action.
You can get away with a lot, so long as you don't bother anyone. The EPA didn't crack down on diesel tuners until coal rolling became enough of an issue that people complained about the lack of enforcement.
caconym_ 18 hours ago [-]
> These things hold up traffic
IDK what kind of gearing this gimped version will come with, but it apparently has the same 660cc engine as the "real" Japanese version that can do 70+ mph. That's not a vehicle that's going to hold up traffic by being too slow, unless it's camping in the left lane on the freeway.
pfdietz 18 hours ago [-]
> And that's how to get these banned.
Just how cars that can be hacked to eliminate pollution controls are banned?
Oh wait. That doesn't happen. The individual that does the hacking can get in trouble; the company? Not so much.
wry_xy 19 hours ago [-]
The trucks can go faster. The issue is where they can drive legally.
shye 19 hours ago [-]
That's one issue. There's also safety as LSV regulation do not require any crashworthiness tests, so such trucks may be more dangerous to passengers and others (or may not - as there's no mandated bar, we can't really tell how good/bad they are).
jojobas 19 hours ago [-]
I'd think these are not any more unsafe than any other cab-over truck?
shye 18 hours ago [-]
We can't tell without comparable tests, which we don't have, and probably won't have: I suspect the reason this is to be sold as LSV is to avoid such.
Results from crash testing of the Japanese model aren't great (scored 1 out of 5 in JNCAP; higher is better), but since results are only comparable to similar weight vehicles, we can't compare to bigger cab-overs directly, only to passenger Kei cars, where some reach 4 out of 5, with a few scoring the full 5.
jojobas 17 hours ago [-]
The thing is, heavier trucks are exempt from any of it in the US. 2006-2009 Chevrolet W-Series were frontal collision death traps as kei trucks and nobody cared.
quietsegfault 17 hours ago [-]
In my US State, low speed vehicles have special license plates. You can get stopped by police and towed if you take it onto roads over 35mph speed limit.
officeplant 2 hours ago [-]
> With its friendly little 660cc engine and CVT transmission, the KEI-01 was certified to meet American low-speed vehicle safety standards, meaning it has a limited top speed of less than 25mph and is only legal on roads with a posted speed limit of less than 35mph.
So it's basically useless to the American market outside of the farming and rural campgrounds communities.
We already import thousands of Kei trucks a year for farm truck use and those imported trucks can even have their speed limiters removed to go 55mph depending on the state laws, this is pointless.
erickhill 20 hours ago [-]
660cc engine at ~40 horsepower is about the same as a mid-70s VW Beetle - not in cc size, but HP potential.
This little truck could do a lot more than 25 mph if it were allowed to do so. Not saying that would be safe, and I'd not want to ever put one on a busy freeway, but for getting around most urban cities in the US it's fine as-is but would be even better if the limit was ~40 mph.
__alexander 21 hours ago [-]
It’s a huge mistake to limit the speed to 25mph. When this is released in 2027, Kei trucks will be street legal in Colorado. I would have pre-ordered this without question but that speed makes it useless for basic commuting or running errands.
bryanlarsen 20 hours ago [-]
AFAICT, This truck will not be able to pass either the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) or the EPA/CARB emissions standards for high speed vehicles. The new Colorado rules for Kei vehicles does not remove those requirements because it relies on the existing exemptions available for 25+ year old vehicles.
IOW, it needs to keep the 25mph speed limiter to qualify as a low speed vehicle, even in Colorado.
__alexander 20 hours ago [-]
Good point.
mike_d 20 hours ago [-]
EPA/CARB effectively sets a minimum size for trucks. Rather than having a small light truck that can do the job, you get a Ford F250 hauling a single bale of hay.
But rolling back or adding exemptions for small trucks is political suicide despite the clear environmental benefits.
Grombobulous 20 hours ago [-]
This isn’t really true. See: Ford Maverick.
CARB only nudges manufacturers, but the market’s own purchase preferences are doing the big push.
Perhaps the biggest nudge is that gasoline is undertaxed. Consumers will never see a reason to stop driving a 18-25mpg truck when gas being less than $5 a gallon is considered a “high” price. The gas tax hasn’t kept up with inflation.
I don’t love the ford F-150 for being a monster truck, but consider this: with the right configuration it sears 6 adults comfortably, plus having a bed for cargo. Families legitimately replace minivans and other family vehicles with it, plus it can tow and haul being the body on frame truck that it is.
AngryData 19 hours ago [-]
Gas is not undertaxed, weight is undertaxed. Road wear grows exponentially with weight. The biggest factor in road wear is how many loaded semi-trucks drive down it.
bitmasher9 5 hours ago [-]
Is road wear the biggest negative externality of burning gasoline?
It might actually be, but I always assumed it was carbon emissions.
bryanlarsen 20 hours ago [-]
This vehicle gets 37mpg. For a vehicle with this footprint, CARB requires 63 mpg for the 2026 standard and 121 for the 2032 standard.
mywittyname 19 hours ago [-]
Yeah, but actual MPG and CAFE MPG are very, very different numbers. Manufactures get a boat load of "credits" for selling hybrids, EVs, having engines that can burn ethanol, etc.
Also, it's Corporate Average Fuel Economy. Not Model Average Fuel Economy. So those 150k or so Mavericks have to offset the to the like 600k or so F-Series pickups being sold with 400+HP motors.
Ford has never paid a CAFE fine, despite selling predominantly gas guzzling pickups, SUVs, and having its only car being a sports car. This is because of the aforementioned credits they get for flex fuel support, etc.
Grombobulous 20 hours ago [-]
CARB was basically nullified by the Trump administration, right?
Either way, if the Maverick gets 37MPG already, seems like it’s not that much of an ask to get it to 67mpg.
If Slate can make a $25,000 EV truck I don’t see why Ford can’t do the same.
throwaway2037 18 hours ago [-]
> If Slate can make a $25,000 EV truck I don’t see why Ford can’t do the same.
I assume the answer is simple: Economics. The profit margin on a Slate truck is probably tiny. Ford can make much more in profits by selling bigger, more expensive trucks.
With inflation running so hot in the US, I will be very surprised if they can keep their promise for a 25K USD base model truck, and maintain it for any significant period of time. I found the preorder agreement here: https://www.slate.auto/en/terms/preorder
> 1. Preorder
> By submitting your Preorder and paying the non-refundable deposit (the “Preorder Deposit”), you are securing a firm time slot for the production of a Truck. If you choose to place a Preorder prior to being assigned a delivery window, you will be assigned one when available. This Agreement does not constitute a purchase agreement for a Truck and you are not obligated to purchase a Truck. You will be required to enter into a separate Vehicle Purchase Agreement closer to the time of delivery in order to purchase a Truck and you will be able to select any accessories and configure your Truck at that time. The Vehicle Purchase Agreement will include the final price sheet for your configured Truck and may be with a separate Slate entity. Your Preorder becomes effective upon your acceptance of these Terms and your payment of the Preorder Deposit.
Man, what a word salad! In short, there is no guarantee about the final base price.
> If Slate can make a $25,000 EV truck I don’t see why Ford can’t do the same.
The Ford Fathom isn't that far off.
MetaWhirledPeas 3 hours ago [-]
Exactly. $25k isn't what I would call cheap, and Ford has probably decided that at that price (or near it) people rightfully want basic amenities in their truck, like a back seat. I hope Slate succeeds but they have a tough row to hoe.
toast0 20 hours ago [-]
The Ford Maverick is wider and longer than a 1994 s-10 based on a random site [1].
All while the Maverick has a bed that probably can't properly move a couch.
You probably can't really fit a couch on the back of a kei truck either, but it's ok because they're cute.
The Maverick seats 4-5 adults comfortably. I think we can be a little more accepting that consumer tastes have changed.
The appeal of a Maverick is that it’s a normal family vehicle that drives just like a passenger car while having a bed where you can put dirty stuff.
toast0 20 hours ago [-]
Consumer tastes may have changed... but we don't know for sure because nobody builds the trucks we want.
I know I see a lot of light duty fleets that switched from Rangers to F-150s only because the Ranger was discontinued and there were no small trucks to switch to.
These are businesses that need a 6 foot bed for gear, but don't need to have more than one seat (but two is fine), and would like fuel efficiency and dollar efficiency.
Some of them went to work vans, but nobody is selling those right now either.
I used to have a 2007 Ranger I bought new, but sold it due to parking restrictions and no specific current need for a truck. When I needed a light truck again (~ 2019), there was nothing to buy new. I don't want a real truck cause they're too big, I don't want more than one row of seats. I ended up with a 2003 S-10, cause that's what was available in the marketplace for me.
mywittyname 19 hours ago [-]
> but we don't know for sure because nobody builds the trucks we want.
Americans collectively purchase over 1 million trucks a year. They come in all kinds of different form factors from work truck with unpainted bumpers to 700HP supercharged dune runners, there are massive couches on wheels with interior made from saddle leather, to trucks pushing 1000ft-lbs to torque. There are EVs trucks with 400 miles of range and crossovers with the hatch turned into a tiny bed. There's even a Jeep Wranger with a bed (Gladiator).
If there's a significant market for a truck niche, it's covered. Trucks are far and away the most diverse segment of the US auto market. If manufactures killed of the truck you want, it's because they apparently can't find 1,999 other people to buy that trim.
linksnapzz 1 hours ago [-]
>If there's a significant market for a truck niche, it's covered.
Substitute "car" for "truck" in that statement, and you have exactly the justification Ford and GM had for not building the first minivans in the late '70s.
Ford even had all the detailed market research that said you could move ~700K units of such a vehicle per year; but disbelieved it, "b/c if that were truly the case, GM would've made those already."
Hal Sperlich took that information with him to Chrysler after Henry Ford II fired him, and the first thing he did at Chrysler was to convince John Riccardo to develop the K-car, which provided the parts Sperlich would need for the minivan a few years later. Despite the staggering profits generated by the first minivans, it took GM another six years, and Ford another ten to begin selling a competitive product.
Point is, don't assume every addressable profitable niche is actually being addressed.
toast0 18 hours ago [-]
> Americans collectively purchase over 1 million trucks a year. They come in all kinds of different form factors. If there's a significant market for a truck niche, it's covered.
They do not come in all form factors. Compact trucks are missing.
> If manufactures killed of the truck you want, it's because they apparently can't find 1,999 other people to buy that trim.
If that were true, Ford wouldn't have stopped selling the Ranger in the US. They stopped making them in December 2011.
Why stop when you're selling 50k+ a year, and sales increase to 70k when you let people know you're cancelling it.
Canadian sales were about 20k a year, with 2011 and 2012 combining to hit 20k-ish. [2]
If it's not sales, and it's not competition (because all of the competition stopped servicing this market, too), it's because CAFE forced us to buy bigger or older trucks.
> They do not come in all form factors. Compact trucks are missing.
The Maverick is a compact truck. It's slightly shorter and somewhat wider than the Ranger.
It's specifically only the 2-seat compact truck form factor that's missing.
bryanlarsen 20 hours ago [-]
The fact that this tiny engine couldn't meet emissions standards is bonkers. But that's the law as written right now.
johnwalkr 19 hours ago [-]
Of course it could. But the whole reason for Kei cars being cheap in Japan is that they are light, power-limited and exempt from some emissions and safety regulations. The emissions part made sense ages ago in Japan when emissions was more closely correlated to engine size. Now they are too popular domestically and as an export item for the regulations to be changed easily. It’s a matter of time though.
readthenotes1 20 hours ago [-]
Where I live the Ford F-250 is not used for falling a single bit of anything other than air. They are in pristine shape and look like they've never been outside the city limits nor off City roads
ceejayoz 20 hours ago [-]
My favorite example of this is the big lifted pickups innnnnnnching over slightly bumpy railroad crossings.
lastofthemojito 20 hours ago [-]
Toyota doesn't seem to be aiming for your business just yet. From their press release:
> As an intentionally low-volume, niche vehicle, the KEI-01 will initially be offered through a fleet-focused pilot program to help the company learn how it can best serve U.S. customers and use cases.
I do hope they're able to build on this, and maybe offer left-hand-drive and a more reasonable top speed eventually.
laughing_man 20 hours ago [-]
I doubt Toyota will ever produce a small, inexpensive pickup that you would actually feel comfortable driving on a freeway. It would cut into its Tacoma and Tundra sales, which have a good profit margin. At least, not without some other manufacturer taking market share with such a vehicle.
quixoticelixer- 19 hours ago [-]
This and the Tacoma are incredibly different markets
laughing_man 16 hours ago [-]
Yes, and the worry for Toyota is why they will never evolve the kei truck into a practical vehicle. Tacoma is their low end truck, and it's way, way more expensive than a low end truck should be.
TSiege 20 hours ago [-]
I think the strategy is specifically not going for customers who want it for those things. It's meant for farms and work sites not commuting or running errands
20 hours ago [-]
julienb_sea 20 hours ago [-]
It's RHD. I suspect they are testing the waters before they build a proper LHD model targeting the broader US consumer market.
kevin_thibedeau 20 hours ago [-]
There's already a market for off road use. They are far superior to SxS UTVs that are overpriced for what they deliver. You usually get heat and air conditioning in an enclosed cab with flexible bed configurations. SxSs are glorified toys in comparison.
This is exploiting the existing LSV classification to bypass the chicken tax that limits the current market to old used imports. It will be easy enough to mod them for higher speeds on farms.
SoftTalker 20 hours ago [-]
Limiter delete will likely be readily available in the aftermarket.
Grombobulous 20 hours ago [-]
For those of you clamoring for kei trucks to be street legal in the US, you really need to do some street view comparisons between Japan and the US.
US roads are built for much, much higher speeds. Kei cars purposefully give up safety with the caveat that they’re only used on low speed roadways, and Japan designs their roads with the intention of these vehicles being acceptably safe in that context.
wodenokoto 20 hours ago [-]
Kei-cars are the smallest class of cars allowed on highways in Japan. Japan highway speeds are quite low at 100km/h, which is still more than twice what this car is limited to.
On intercity highways in Japan you are driving next to as large trucks as anywhere I've driven.
Grombobulous 20 hours ago [-]
Good correction, I was pretty sure they weren’t allowed on highways but I must have misunderstood.
mallipeddi 19 hours ago [-]
Kei cars in Japan are definitely allowed to go on their freeways. I have done big roadtrips all over Japan and I see kei cars all the time on the freeways. They just stay in the slow lane but I have seen ambitious kei cars drivers even pass regular cars in the passing lane :)
Daz912 12 hours ago [-]
[dead]
herbst 11 hours ago [-]
How can road design be for speed? Isn't that more the culture?
Ex. There is no visible difference between Germanies highways (no speed limit) and Switzerland with 120kmh max
webdood90 19 hours ago [-]
The roads are built to accommodate the cars Americans drive. At minimum, we have to put our money and interest towards alternatives for the system to change.
bamboozled 19 hours ago [-]
I drive my Kei Truck on highways all the time, I'm not going to tell you it's safe, but it works fine.
caconym_ 20 hours ago [-]
This newly announced truck is apparently limited to speeds I'd consider borderline unsafe on American public roads (<= 25 mph) because that puts it in the LSV category, and that's apparently the only way you can sell a Kei truck under current US regulations. So they're making it less safe and less useful in order to be able to sell it here, I suppose thanks to reasoning similar to that which appears in your comment.
IIUC a typical "real" Japanese kei truck can manage 60-70 mph easily, if not comfortably. That's more than enough to hang with traffic on the vast majority of American roads, and nobody sane is using these things as long distance transportation. So the "they're too slow" argument is clearly bunk.
That leaves the crash safety angle. I can't help noticing that motorcycles are still legal, or did I miss something? Anyway, it's very emblematic of the American approach to road safety that some small, light vehicles are uncertifiable on safety grounds, but the sizes and weights of personal vehicles are allowed to grow in unbounded fashion. There is clearly no safety issue with getting groceries and picking your kid up from school in something that weighs most of 10K lbs and has such dogshit sight lines that you could run over a whole school bus's worth of kids in a crosswalk and hardly notice.
Freedom? Personal responsibility? Not quite---you can make a choice to endanger other road users, but never yourself! Unless you ride a motorcycle, in which case that's okay.
Barbing 12 hours ago [-]
> Freedom? Personal responsibility?
Perhaps an attempt to balance both.
Working class buys cheapest available <insert product here>. Allow sale of new vehicles without seatbelts, airbags, etc. and that becomes the attractive thing to lease (assuming it can be insured). Allow, say… uninspected beef & dairy products instead and if those savings are passed on, that’ll be purchased by low-income folks too.
Motorcycles have a built-in discouragement from the cost-optimizing behavior: lack of those two extra wheels.
>Not quite---you can make a choice to endanger other road users, but never yourself!
Would be open to ways regulate enormous vehicles which’re dangerous to the public outside their cabins. Keep taxpayers alive + out of hospitals they might not be able to afford (cost passed on to me).
caconym_ 10 hours ago [-]
My point is more about the doublethink re: crash safety across various types of vehicles than the implications of actually trying to bring kei vehicles less than 25 years old to the US (in whatever form). Since you mentioned it, I would much rather we get serious about regulating huge, heavy personal vehicles than start worrying about regulatory carve-outs (or whatever) for kei vehicles.
But, (again) since you mentioned it---"new vehicles without seatbelts, airbags, etc." is a misrepresentation of modern kei vehicles. Kei cars sold new today have seatbelts, crumple zones, airbags, ABS, AEB, and so on. They perform well in crashes for their size---sure, they are small cars, but they aren't a scheme to foist unsafe-by-design shitboxes on people who can't afford something safer.
More recent kei pickups still use the cabover design which necessarily limits your available crumple volume, but even those have the modern safety systems. The imports you see in the US are 25+ years old, which affects their safety outcomes in the way you would expect. People here buy them despite the age and import rigamarole (arguably a terrible value on paper) because there is demand.
---
The Smart Fortwo is probably the closest thing to a modern kei car we've had in the US outside of imports. IIUC they made it work with our regs by designing to them from the start, but in practice its safety outcomes were apparently pretty similar to kei cars in Japan, and exactly what you'd expect: decent performance in single vehicle crashes, but they suffer in crashes with larger vehicles. They weren't sold on the cheap to lure cost-conscious buyers (neither are kei cars in Japan), and ultimately I guess Americans just didn't want to buy them. But they were solid runabouts for city dwellers and didn't feel unsafe to drive in that context.
tl;dr: If there was some viable scheme to sell new-ish kei vehicles in the US, I would not be terribly worried about the scenario you describe, and IMO implying some equivalence between e.g. a hypothetical moderate regulatory carve-out for such vehicles with abandonment of beef and dairy product inspections is utterly ridiculous.
Barbing 2 hours ago [-]
Great answer. Excited to hear about the crumple zones. I'm going to watch some crash tests. Thanks for the Smart Fortwo comparison, a good reminder about that vehicle. I accept it as safe enough to sell and have probably changed my perspective for next time I see a modern kei.
You seem to be better at comparisons than me:
One note on selling new vehicles without safety features: that is an example of what might be made without regulation and what would definitely be purchased on both the new and later the used market by those who can't afford more.
On the beef inspection point, I wanted a random example to drive home that poverty stinks and in every single product category the absolute cheapest SKU has plenty of buyers. You well likely are able to offer a better example I could have thrown out?
TimC123456 4 hours ago [-]
This is exciting, though the 25mph governor is a dealbreaker. I own a 1998 Subaru Sambar Kei Van (and am importing a second this month). It's a delight to drive here in the city, and it functions as an ideal delivery vehicle for my wife's neighborhood bakery. Cargo space exceeds my 7-seat SUV.
Maintenance is challenging (entirely DIY, as no shops around here care to touch it), but getting most parts has been fairly straightforward, just slow if we have to ship them from Japan.
The Kei van format is fantastic, and we've even installed seatbelts for the rear fold-down seats and we drive our kids around in it. I can't seem to get it higher than about 60mph, but that's scary fast for this vehicle. We don't ever really need to take it on the highway. It's so simple to park, visibility and features are amazing, even for an older vehicle. Ahead of it's time! I would love to get a pickup version, but don't have an excuse for that yet.
RankingMember 2 hours ago [-]
Bringing back the Scion brand for real as Toyota's EV sub-brand would seem like a good fit to me. (I miss that brand: great, simple cars, mostly based on the Echo platform)
SwellJoe 18 hours ago [-]
All little trucks are beautiful. The perfect truck is a 1985 long bed Toyota Pickup, but I guess I'm happy about any little trucks coming to the US, since the laws are stacked so much against them.
johnnyApplePRNG 37 minutes ago [-]
I see people importing kei trucks to Canada all the time so I'm sure they'll sell great.
throwaway81523 17 hours ago [-]
I almost bought used electric one for $5K about a year ago, before the Iran invasion and the fuel price spikes. I had a good use for it at the time (a family move) so I regret not getting it, since I figured it would just be more lingering crap at the end of the move. But, it would have held resale value. I'm sure they're in much shorter supply now.
They're great for local hauling or a short commute, but impractical as a general purpose vehicle due to limited range and speed (the type I was looking at, anyway). Top speed is 40mph and they're legal to drive only on roads with speed limit 35mph or lower, and range with the 10kwh battery pack is around 40 miles iirc. But, if you only use it a few miles per day on average and park it outside, putting solar panels on the roof means it literally never needs fuel or charging. The stopper for me was being unable to drive on the freeway.
ryzvonusef 14 hours ago [-]
Not sure ho well they will work with the 25mph limit. Might as well import an actual kei truck, even if 25 year old... or get one of those mini electric chinese pickups:
btw, there is a Californian company called Telo Truck that wants to sell a Kei-ish truck but as an EV cab forward. I say Kei-ish because it is 152 inch long (they compare it to a Mini on their website), where as Kei trucks can max be 134 inch, it gives me the same shape and vibes.
If the company ever makes it to production, then i guess that could be a real option.
xtiansimon 5 hours ago [-]
Hmm. That view with the flowers makes the cab look as deep as the bed. The proportions don’t look right. Is this a rendering or other kind of concept?
analog31 19 hours ago [-]
>>>> When Toyota first introduced the Scion marque in 2003, it had one primary goal – sell cars to the younger generation.
When I bought my Scion, after finishing the transaction, I asked the salesman: "It's obvious who these cars are being marketed to. But who buys them?"
His answer: "Old tightwads like you."
apparent 18 hours ago [-]
That may have been correct at first, but later on I saw plenty of young people driving them (and not many older people).
dennyabraham 19 hours ago [-]
Kei trucks have high utility because they continue to be country-appropriate as American pickup trucks (and cars!) used to be. The confluence of CAFE standards and tax benefits entirely eliminated small vehicles in the United States. It really makes companies like Telo stand out, as they are making small yet fully functional trucks in the US, despite the inherent headwinds.
Another company that deserves plaudits for the same is mutiny.fm who are building an open source kei truck out of a disused factory in Detroit. Similar limitations as the new scion, but aimed at people for whom repairability and modifiability are virtues in a vehicle
SecretDreams 19 hours ago [-]
> It really makes companies like Telo stand out, as they are making small yet fully functional trucks in the US, despite the inherent headwinds.
I don't know if you are affiliated with Telo or just find them fascinating as a product segment, but a starting price of 42k USD is the thing that "stands out" the most for me about their product. Otherwise, I do like the segment - but this pricing is offensive.
ourmandave 17 hours ago [-]
When I was a kid in the early 2000s, I often dreamed of one day owning a tC in Black Cherry Pearl and enjoyed lovingly calling xBs “toaster cars.”
Recently almost bought an '06 xB toaster except it was a Series limit edition with the special paint job. It had chipped paint on the hood from rocks and the owner said his insurance would total it instead of repainting because the paint was so expensive.
laweijfmvo 20 hours ago [-]
why would they build this? i believe there is a legitimate market for small trucks (actual small trucks, not Mavericks), but less than 25mph is just not useable for anything
rimbo789 6 hours ago [-]
I think a much better question is why do we think trucks need to go faster than 25mph? Why do we build our roads and cars to do that? Speed kills.
I live in a rural area in NC and these are all over the place, but I'm not sure why Toyota is doing this. Without knowing the price it's difficult to say how well it will do but why would I buy this vs an older one? In our area I think these are replacing side by sides which have just become astronomical in price.
frxx 18 hours ago [-]
Please note that kei cars in Japan are usually speed limited to 130kmh/~80mph, so to see them on the road at 100/110kmh (~60/65mph) is a daily and totally safe occurrence.
In addition, most keis sold in Japan are not the turbo variants but the one without with 50-55ish HP.
20 hours ago [-]
Schlagbohrer 10 hours ago [-]
I love those trucks, the way they look, but how are they for tall people? 6.5 feet / 2m or taller
In 1963 Lyndon Johnson added "light trucks" to the Chicken Tax as a quid pro quo to prevent the auto workers union from striking before the election.
As a result we don't get "right sized" trucks like the kei or more efficient farm vehicles like the hilux.
drak0n1c 14 hours ago [-]
Thankfully the set of regulations that essentially banned small trucks were repealed by this administration.
KerrAvon 2 hours ago [-]
Purely as a satisfied customer, I want to put out a plea for the site: if you're into good writing about cars, subscribe to The Autopian. Put your money where your mouth is.
cf100clunk 20 hours ago [-]
NYT article: ''Toyota Sees a U.S. Future for Tiny Trucks With a Devoted Following''
Kei is legal on streets with limits 35 mph and under. I could daily it if I went the long way. My drive would go from 15 minutes to 20.
mrmckizzle 4 hours ago [-]
I didn't realize that the KEI-01 can drive in 4x4, that's pretty good. I'm going to have to keep an eye on it. My 1991 I6 F-150 is lonely and needs a buddy.
bryanlarsen 20 hours ago [-]
John Deere sells tons of Gators, lots of farms have them. This seems more capable and similarly priced.
Liuser 21 hours ago [-]
Who is the target market for this? It’s an ICE vehicle, 4wd and limited to a maximum speed of 25mph. Farmers?
alistairSH 21 hours ago [-]
I have a few friends who've purchased older kei trucks. One for use on his property, the other got his tagged in NC (IIRC, it was NC). The local bicycle shop also has a kei van as their "shop truck" (another used one imported from Japan). The imports will go faster than 25mph, but they are terrible on the highway. The 25mph is an artificial limit to meet LSV regulations.
All that said, $25k isn't cheap when you can get a basic Polaris SXS for $15k. It might not be street legal in many states, but much of the usage is going to be on private property.
DASD 20 hours ago [-]
I'm in Western North Carolina(Asheville) and there are an actual number of kei trucks here. Not every other vehicle common but enough to see maybe 5-10 every day.
I think a kei truck might be a better choice than a sxs if noise ordinances are a concern. e.g. utility vehicles for groundskeeping staff
alistairSH 20 hours ago [-]
The utility SXS aren't particuarlly loud; it's the "racing" SXS that have minimal off-road exhausts that are as bad a pipe-less crotch rockets.
100percentjake 20 hours ago [-]
Fleets, as evidenced by Toyota/Scion saying they will exclusively sell to fleet purchasers. My local university, for an example, had 20 or so Daihatsu Hijets when I went to school there, which have given way to far more expensive Ford Bronco Sports and similar. I assume the lack of parts supply and repairability of the Hijets attrited them away. Domestically producing them to keep the chicken tax/tariffs at bay and having dealer service at the local Toyota dealership will make these appealing again in those markets.
kelp6063 21 hours ago [-]
Farmers and universities have been picking up kei trucks for the last few years for things like groundskeeping work. Being able to sell a brand-new vehicle with parts availability to these customers is what Toyota is trying to capitalize on
bryanlarsen 20 hours ago [-]
LSV's like this are extremely popular in the retirement home communities like The Villages in Florida. They're allowed on the golf cart paths, and also on a few roads where golf carts aren't allowed.
everdrive 21 hours ago [-]
It also seems like it'd be a really good city pickup truck.
chao- 20 hours ago [-]
A friend with a WFH tech job, who lives on his own land (with family and various critters), bought one a few years ago for hauling materials and supplies around his property.
quickthrowman 20 hours ago [-]
College campuses, jobsites, large sports complexes, golf courses, farms, solar fields, junkyards, parks departments, road construction crews, etc.
The same places small golf carts, Cushman carts, or side-by-sides are being used already.
aaronbrethorst 20 hours ago [-]
My neighborhood in Seattle has a lot of kei trucks
jdlshore 21 hours ago [-]
“This makes it not really usable as a daily driver, but keeps it in this beautiful sweet spot where it has a shocking number of commercial and agricultural uses.”
Liuser 21 hours ago [-]
Doh thank you. No excuses I can give for my poor reading comprehension.
colechristensen 20 hours ago [-]
In rural Iowa I saw a ton of those little "UTV", gators, or whatever various brands call them which are effectively beefed up golf carts being driven around town. Trucks have become so enormous and expensive that these somewhat street legal vehicles are taking over for people who just need to go here and there.
quickthrowman 20 hours ago [-]
The colloquial name used in my area (Minnesota) is “side-by-side”. It’s also the title of the Wikipedia article too.
Farmers or land owners. Great for hauling around your property. Like a 4 wheeler with a trailer but road legal.
21 hours ago [-]
nemomarx 21 hours ago [-]
You do see people taking tractors on roads between farms pretty often, and they usually have the speed limit stuff on.
thelittlenag 21 hours ago [-]
I didn't know Scion had left...
jdc0589 20 hours ago [-]
bruh
kyleomalley 18 hours ago [-]
Man, forget the slate and other trucks, this is going to be awesome.
t1234s 16 hours ago [-]
Needs a manual transmission and 4wd like the old Honda Acty
legitster 17 hours ago [-]
> With its friendly little 660cc engine and CVT transmission, the KEI-01 was certified to meet American low-speed vehicle safety standards, meaning it has a limited top speed of less than 25mph and is only legal on roads with a posted speed limit of less than 35mph. This makes it not really usable as a daily driver, but keeps it in this beautiful sweet spot where it has a shocking number of commercial and agricultural uses.
You were always allowed to import small kei trucks in the US if you didn't take them on public streets - you were just never allowed to register them. You would regularly see them in zoos or in manufacturing yards - in LHD to boot!
It's a little disappointing, they are basically going to be treated legally like a golf cart and electronically limited. An identical imported model would go all the way up to 55mph on the same drivetrain.
It's all limited by the US maddening approach to traffic safety - a 3 ton pickup with 6 foot pedestrian blind spots gets top safety ratings, but a small truck going 30mph is illegal.
rootsudo 20 hours ago [-]
So many people here have never driven a kei truck or a wigo/daihatsu agya.
They are not fun cars, they should be cheap and disposable.
The MSRP for this in japan is less than $10,000,$6000 for the base model:
It's going to go here for what, $15,000? $25,000? Better than buying a 25 yr old one for $10,000 from a used dealer lot that has no parts or real mechanic trained on them but at that price point..
a Mavrick is better.
The amazon truck is better.
SoftTalker 20 hours ago [-]
$20K (ish) will get you a Slate EV truck with no options, or a forthcoming REO. Those are real, road-legal trucks not carts with a lawn-mower engine.
greenowl 18 hours ago [-]
Supposedly Toyota is also working on the Stout - a smaller pickup to compete with the Maverick.
20 hours ago [-]
jbm 20 hours ago [-]
I remember getting into my father in law's kei truck. He literally was given it for free by someone he knew; that is how disposable they are.
And yeah, absolutely not comfortable.
Toyota selling them for $25k is parasitism. The idea of selling a cheap truck is apparently impossible with their cost structures. (Worse, if it succeeds it will ruin the Japanese market)
The best outcome is that this is a mild success and America gets a second generation shit version for 40 or 50k that has been fattened and rendered worthless, much like the second generation XB. (Hopefully the second generation is on some slop tier SUV platform so it doesn't wreck the economics of the Japanese market.)
14 hours ago [-]
davexunit 20 hours ago [-]
The headline excited me but a gas vehicle with a 25mph limit is useless to me. When is someone gonna make an EV truck with a kei-like form factor? The Slate ain't it.
jttnr 11 hours ago [-]
> Do you consent to these personal data processing activities by us and our 1753 partners?
That is my new, personal record. Haven't had a site wanting to sell my data to this many parties yet.
no-dr-onboard 18 hours ago [-]
Kei trucks are excellent for farm use, non-DoT roads and intrasite travel. I absolutely wouldn't want to see them on public roads though. American infrastructure just isn't built for them and taxing every bearded hipster and their equally bearded mother for the accommodation isn't something I want to pay for.
apparent 18 hours ago [-]
I don't understand the naming choice. This vehicle is not sporty like the Scions I remember. Also, it is not the kind of vehicle that a scion (person from family money) would aspire to drive.
It seems like they just reached into the "previously granted trademark" bin and pulled out a random name.
user17847392650 19 hours ago [-]
Just build a small, simple, functional truck that is not hamstrung or gimped, and don't try to sell it for a kidney. Why is this seemingly an impossible task in the states?
nntwozz 18 hours ago [-]
Kei trucks are coffins on wheels.
It's the VW Microbus all over again.
GenerWork 20 hours ago [-]
Can’t wait for Floridians to jailbreak the ECU and set it the top speed for max 35 MPH in order to treat it like a long bed golf cart.
internet2000 20 hours ago [-]
Let's see if the vocal internet crowd puts their money where their posts are. I predict this being a market failure.
20 hours ago [-]
ulfw 4 hours ago [-]
Is this some weird US Tik Tok trend?
A kei truck is about the least American-market thing ever
pelagicAustral 11 hours ago [-]
Limited to 25mph, perfect for London.
matt3210 19 hours ago [-]
Not useful, large brands will moat them out of existance for everyday use
sleepy_keita 20 hours ago [-]
I was wondering why they'd keep the same 660cc engine, but it has a 25mph limiter, huh. Waste of an opportunity. 660cc is fine for going 100-120kph here in Japan. I love my kei truck, but speeds in the US are way too fast. I'd want at least a 1L engine.
19 hours ago [-]
GenerocUsername 17 hours ago [-]
Critically nerfed with the 25mph limit. I understand the intentions around safety and regulations, but this will probably kill the small truck industry rather than help it. Likey by design
Shank 11 hours ago [-]
It's only being sold as a fleet vehicle to start for feedback, so I doubt that anyone who is buying a fleet of these will care, at all, because they probably have a specific deployment in mind.
rimbo789 6 hours ago [-]
Kei trucks should be the only form of legal trucks in North America. The current models of “trucks” available are all insanely dangerous for everyone.
There are a bunch of YouTube videos reviewing them.
lp92 20 hours ago [-]
This product makes no sense. Who exactly are they planning to sell to? I don't think people needing a truck for work would ever use something like this over say a F150.
mgiampapa 20 hours ago [-]
It's probably the same market fit as the John Deere Gator. We see them used all over in Hawaii like that.
devmor 20 hours ago [-]
Presumably people who need to haul up to 600lbs regularly in an industrial or farm setting that don’t want to spend $40k? What an odd question.
lp92 5 hours ago [-]
There's a lot of used cheap trucks available. I don't know any farmers buying new fleet trucks but do buy used F150s.
jutworks 20 hours ago [-]
Think you could bench a Scion KEI?
doubled112 19 hours ago [-]
Leg press, probably.
msla 17 hours ago [-]
Is there a crumple zone other than the driver's legs?
(Yes: The passenger's legs.)
Mr_Eri_Atlov 20 hours ago [-]
If we change the low-speed vehicle standards to 35 mph or 40 mph, KEI trucks could thrive in America as a low-cost mobility solution!
nonesuchthing 17 hours ago [-]
So close, but so far.
Let's see here:
LSV: Okay, whatever the market is limited to farm equipment and campuses but the agrijeep was a success despite that
Automatic: WHY. Cost? Maintenance? All so Paul Blart can drive the thing without picking up the automotive equivalent of riding a bike.
Fleet sales only: You are fucking kidding. A lot of fleets buy exclusively American either by obligation or by habit. You lock out half the market for this thing right here.
28k MSRP: Dead on arrival, Slate, a Ford Maverick, the Fathom if it either releases. You are objectively paying more for less.
How Toyota. How could you fuck this one up so bad? I'm almost convinced that Toyota has introduced this simply to manufacture consent for America's lack of compacts. Make the absolutely least appealing package possible and then go "Oh well! Americans only want Toyota Tundra ;)"
annoyingnoob 18 hours ago [-]
Toyota needs reasons to sell internal combustion engines.
juleiie 19 hours ago [-]
Why the hell would someone in US buy a car tailor made for Japanese road regulations
Maybe in Belgium or Netherlands it could work But America? With its land surface and distances? this is dead on arrival
bamboozled 19 hours ago [-]
Kind of glad about this because it f*king sucks that there is such a big export market for these things as that pushes up second hand Kei Truck prices for locals in Japan.
If you want a second hand Kei truck market you're up against hundreds of exporters all bidding at auctions for the best ones who are paying with USD.
0xbadcafebee 20 hours ago [-]
This is pretty cool. It's too bad it's just for fleets. Must be they realized how much money was going to imported Kei trucks, and that they could just... do the importing themselves, and pick up some cash. (edit: looks like they sacrificed payload for the AC/heat? only 600lbs?)
The SXS looks cool, but gearheads want a tiny Jeep replacement (which there are none of in the US), not another UTV/buggy we already have
lenerdenator 21 hours ago [-]
I like the concept, I just find myself wondering if the Big 3 will pull another Chicken Tax move to protect the full-size pickup golden geese.
Toyota - and Japan in general - has a helluva trade relationship with the US, but that's effectively all Detroit knows how to beat the world at anymore and they love the margins on their truck portfolios, to the point that they considered sedans and most coupes to be too thin to warrant continued production.
hydrogen7800 21 hours ago [-]
I recently saw an old kei truck on the road with a CHKNTAX license plate.
tohnjitor 21 hours ago [-]
Toyota will build this truck in Indiana.
lenerdenator 19 hours ago [-]
Would be interesting to know if they're built-built in Indiana, or if they're doing what Ford did with the first-gen Transit Connects: bringing them in from another country (I think it was Turkey in that case) as passenger vehicles with trim and seats, stripping them of those things almost as soon as they hit shore, and getting around the Chicken Tax that way.
kotaKat 20 hours ago [-]
"Build" is a stretch of the word for them to knock down some HiJets in Japan, ship them over, then put them back together again. Toyota's PR even says they're only adding another 50 jobs with their "expansion" to build the kei in Indiana.
That is NOT a lot of people involved.
moate 21 hours ago [-]
600 LB weight limit including passengers, top speed of 25 mph, and right hand drive this feels specifically design to be toothless against American pickups. This is a novelty product, I saw an image of one loaded with half a dozen hay bails and I'm wondering who even needs that? This is a novelty car for vineyard owners and show pony stables. Like you'd get just as much use out of a JD Gator and they probably have worse weight distribution.
100percentjake 20 hours ago [-]
It wasn't "designed" for or against anything American. This is a purely Japanese design designed to Japanese tastes that has historically seen enough success in American markets that Toyota's market research has deemed the juice worth the squeeze to begin manufacturing them in the US to get around the Chicken Tax that previously made them prohibitively expensive and sell them to fleet purchasers. My local university had 20 or so Daihatsu Hijets running around until (I assume) parts supply dried up and they were replaced with far-more-expensive Ford Bronco Sports and similar compact crossovers.
lastofthemojito 20 hours ago [-]
The nice thing about a minitruck over something like a Gator is you get an interior.
I worked golf course landscaping during some summers in college and drove Gators, which did their job well. But they certainly weren't any relief from being out in the sun all day. This Scion minitruck has heat and air conditioning. And locking doors. So it'll be a respite from the outdoors, as well as a secure (well, as secure as any car) place to leave your personal items.
lenerdenator 19 hours ago [-]
The concern I'm imagining is that once you start offering much smaller pickups, they could potentially get customers thinking that maybe the bigger pickups just aren't necessary. You already see a bit of this if you look at the discourse around kei trucks and the smaller ute-sized Ford Maverick. The end result would be a cannibalization of the full-size market by trucks that are much, much lower margin.
Right now, if you want certain things in a truck in the US and Canada, you must buy a full-size, even if they could be offered as features on smaller trucks that would not justify the same MSRP in the minds of customers. I think this is part of why we don't see any real competition from GM or Stellantis to the Ford Maverick almost three years on. GM would rather you buy a mid- or full-size truck, and Stellantis doesn't offer anything other than full-size Rams.
omeralsaloum 16 hours ago [-]
hi
cowLamp 18 hours ago [-]
and just after being mentioned in dropout. grant is in on the conspiracy /j
ravivarmat 8 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
draw_down 20 hours ago [-]
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justinai6 21 hours ago [-]
[dead]
snovymgodym 20 hours ago [-]
tl;dr: it's for the neighborhood golf cart market
18 hours ago [-]
taurusnoises 19 hours ago [-]
I'm as into these as the next person, but this is not a substitute for a real set of 4wd wheels needed on a farm or rural property, which is the practical application others seem to think it's for. With a 600 lb payload (including people), you can't even cart a single cubic yard of mulch. Forget gravel, dirt, sand, etc. It's cool if super cheap, or if you're rich and want something fun to bang around in addition to your actual machines. But give me a used Taco anyday (and a Deere gator for the woods stuff). But have I always wanted one for fun? Obvs.
RussianCow 18 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure why you were downvoted. As someone who lives on a rural property, I completely agree. Give me a normal, dependable truck with a small cabin and a long(ish) bed, like the pre-redesign Tacoma, that I can use to haul stuff to/from the property.
A 600 pound weight limit (including passengers!!) and 25 MPH limit are both deal-breakers for my use case, and I can't see anyone around where I live buying one. Maybe there is a big enough niche market on the commercial side?
taurusnoises 18 hours ago [-]
My wife an I researched Kei trucks for a while, talking to importers, and out of state insurers who set you up with an LLC so you can register and drive them in a state which until now didn't allow them. But, in the end, they're just not practical for any real rural work. Cool for sure. But, only as an addition to the fleet. They're especially popular with the hipster hobbiests though.
They aren't comfortable to drive at all (although just having A/C at all on a hot summer day in the field is a godsend), and I wouldn't want to do longer trips in one - although you certainly could in a pinch.
It seems like Toyota/Scion is just testing the waters here, and I'm not sure how successful they'll be. But I hope there is a future for kei trucks in the US.
It's a shame they don't really make them anymore. If I could buy a modern vehicle in the States that had the following properties:
- 2 seater
- Pickup truck
- Manual transmission
- Minimum 6 foot bed
I'd probably do it in a heartbeat. But even these somewhat weak constraints fail every vehicle in the USA market.
The Toyota eCVT is an engineering marvel[1].
The hybrid power train is simpler than a regular transmission and made of more durable parts.
The clutch itself might not have to disappear for more fine grained power delivery, the new Ferrari clutch-by-wire[2] is a similar bit of a few hall sensors talking to the ECU.
You can build a simulacrum of a manual low-mode transmission without needing to use it constantly in stop-go traffic or while sliding backwards on loose dirt.
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2L5VOtf47Y
[2] - https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/corporate/articles/ferrari-12c...
I don't think we're likely to see a Toyota hybrid system or Ferarri-style drive-by-wire clutch at that price point. Although maybe in the future we could see EV kei trucks at a comparable price [2].
Personally I think it's worth spending slightly more for the convenience of a manual transmission (and my license doesn't actually permit me to drive a manual on public roads) - although some of my buddies laughed at me for buying an automatic kei truck. I think at this point though automatic transmission sales probably exceed manual transmission sales.
[1] https://www.daihatsu.co.jp/lineup/truck/02_grade.htm?item=6
[2] https://electrek.co/2026/11/01/i-imported-a-2000-electric-tr...
On one hand, you would think it makes sense. It IS an additional skillset to operate a manual transmission vehicle. On the other hand, if you can't operate a manual properly, you aren't getting very far anyway. Was there really that big of a spate of "I didn't know how to operate the manual, so I wrecked the vehicle" sort of issues in Europe and elsewhere that pre-empt this and justify the extra bureaucracy?
So while I'm not sure about the origin of manual vs automatic licenses specifically, it's not really surprising in the broader context of Japan's strict stance on driving.
In practice it means if you want to drive manual, you need to take the driving test in a manual - which is not unreasonable. But seeing as how only 13% of foreigners pass Japan's practical driving test on the first attempt (to be fair, it was easier back when I took it) [2], and I hadn't driven manual in years, I wasn't looking to make things any more difficult for myself.
Or there is also the option to take some lessons at a driving school and get certified to drive a manual (with the assessment at the end being easier than taking the official test). But I haven't really had a good reason to bother with this.
[1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-road-incident...
[2] https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/16392895
If you took the automatic-only test, and have an automatic-only license, you can take an additional 7 hours of lessons to remove the automatic-only restriction from your license.
It does indeed make sense, since manual requires more skill, and attempting to drive a manual on the street without knowing how could be dangerous.
Funnily enough you can visit europe, and drive here on a canadian/US license, without ever having driven a manual.
Deaths per X km driven would be a more useful statistics. Japan has such a well functioning public transport system which just leads to people driving less.
Road fatalities per 10,000 registered vehicles were also higher in the US, at 0.4 in Japan vs 1.3 in the US.
Japan does have a significantly larger share of deaths coming from pedestrians (36%) and cyclists (15%) vs the US (18.2% vs 2.9%, respectively) - which is one of the challenges of driving in Japan. You constantly have to be on the lookout for pedestrians and cyclists coming from any direction, often on narrower streets with obstructed visibility. In the US the largest share of deaths is to car occupants themselves (~60%, though it's a little hard to determine the exact value since for some reason SUVs aren't classified as passenger cars, so deaths to SUV occupants count as "other").
[1] https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/united-states-r...
[2] https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/japan-road-safe...
Even worse was when I lived in the countryside and I'd try to go for walks down the road and motorbikes absolutely maxing out would rocket past me not giving a shit about who or what was on the road. Kinda funny looking back how the most dangerous place I lived was the Japanese countryside
The US does have separate license endorsements for manual in commercial trucks.
Or you’re launching towards a wall, or, worse, pedestrians, by accidentally dropping the clutch due to poor feathering control.
For 80hp Suzuki Baleno and 110hp Yaris, CVT had $1200 premium, for 120hp Hyundai Verna, 6 sped TC had $1200 premium.
For dirt-simple, low-fi reliability a manual transmission is still the guy for the job. I generally buy older cars and I almost never buy a car over 150k miles unless is has an manual.
They require two generators, but they also don't require a starter motor or an alternator. Meanwhile a non-plugin hybrid only needs around 2 kWh worth of battery, which has gotten so cheap you might prefer that to a clutch replacement.
If you'll recall, around 2001 Nissan used to sell exactly what you and I both want: a light duty small pickup marketed in the US as the Frontier. That was the D22 model truck, which in NA eventually morphed into the larger (and arguably less capable due to bloat) Navara only years later. Most Americans forgot all about the D22 Frontier.
The rest of the world still has it, usually called the NP300 Hardbody. 2 or 4 seats, 4WD optional, crank windows, manual, basic as can be, and, to quote a guy I know that has one, "an absolute donkey." Across Africa, it's the work truck for the guys that show up to fix things and do work. Foreigners show up in a giant Toyota Land Cruiser. IIRC, It's being phased out in some markets, but it's ubiquitous as the truck that does work. It was the replacement in Southern Africa for the Nissan Champ, a tiny little pickup that didn't change design for 20 years.
Since the older NP300s are still on the road (Frankensteined together), they would be coming up on being importable under the 25+ year classic car exemption. That's about your only option to get a capable light-duty pickup in the US - import Africa's aged cars.
Or wait for this electric Slate pickup.
REO[1] is supposedly coming out with a basic manual truck in a few years.
Slate is another option, but in the prototype videos I've seen it looks like it has about a 4' bed. That's too small for a utility pickup truck. (Edit: I checked; it's 5 feet).
[1] https://reotrucks.com/
Best as I can tell, the lackluster NP200, which looks like a Champ without the character, the Mahindra pickup, and the small Ford Ranger pickup, are filling the gap. Might not be the worst thing - the Nissan NP300 bakkies are apparently terrible for accidents. Still, not everything has to look like a Hilux!
If that actually ships, it might be useful. It's also road speed capable. It's being marketed as a lifestyle accessory, not a work truck.
The Slate pickup can be configured differently and has uses beyond that, I'm sure Slate did market research to arrive at the compromises it did, but it's a legitimate point for some.
Now you just need to move to Thailand. =(
https://www.nyetoyota.com/a-new-affordable-pickup-truck-is-j...
The REO Trucks might fill this niche, if they turn out not to be vaporware.
https://reotrucks.com/runabout/t4x
EV's are different, the power trains there are something a 10yr old can understand. But even in EV land, Tesla spent quite a few years learning things Toyota and GM and the likes had learned half a century earlier about how cars work in the real world. Why the roll the dice at $25k for a conventional vehicle from a no name brand?
If I'm just missing the USP feel free to tell me I'm a dummy.
EVs don't make sense for trucks, especially trucks that will do actual work. I love my Tesla, but I know what it's meant for, and work ain't it.
Yeah, it’s a safe bet.
The type of customer looking for a practical cheap truck won't take kindly to a bunch of silhouette photos and a brand nobody's ever heard of. For the subset who have a good mental radar for AI slop, this whole website just looks like a scam.
[1] https://postimg.cc/2bRfDbNp
Hell, throw in a split shift from a big rig and make trucking a skill again. All of the gears, none of the tears.
Can you lay a 4x8-foot sheet of plywood flat on the bed?
Conduit and pipe tend to come in 10 ft lengths, which only hang out the back of an 8 ft bed a little, but are a real touch-and-go experience with shorter beds.
If a manufacturer doesn't offer an 8 ft bed, what they're selling probably isn't a work truck.
10 ft pipes I can put through the rear window... would be nice if some short-bed trucks came with bed access like the Chevy Avalanche.
Does the Maverick have a bed extender? My Subaru Baja had one and it was a godsend.
It does, but it's never really made sense for my use. I use the bed frequently, but like 95% of the time I don't need the tailgate down, and for the times I do, I keep some ratchet straps in the back seat.
I used the bed extender a lot, though. Moving furniture, beds, a moped, you name it.
Tonneau covers also slightly help with drag, offering slightly better mileage for fuel.
The only tricky thing with tonneau covers is finding a solution that doesn't impede your bed usage. I used a vinyl one for years that simply clamped on and removing it was a 30 second job to undo clamps and throw the folded up cover into the bed alongside the cargo when you needed the full bed length. There are some more integrated solutions that are a bit more aesthetically pleasing which have the downside of hampering your full usage of the bed unless they are removed (often the first half meter or so closest to the cab becomes unavailable using these solutions) - and removing them is way more of a pain in the ass than undoing a couple of clamps.
I own the same Ranger and my employer has a Maverick. They're functionally interchangable. Yeah the bed is theoretically shorter but they make it up in depth and IIRC it's wider. The stupid tailgate trick is fine for sheet goods and lumber. Stand them on edge if they're too heavy for that.
Modern automatics are "good enough"
I know all the ignorant fanboys are gonna screech about body on frame because they're idiots, but there's really no reason for a vehicle this light to need to be this light when you've got Sprinter vans and Toyota Highlanders (to pick two models specifically chosen to appeal to their brand of ignorance) rolling around just fine.
Idiot here o/. One very good reason to prefer a frame vehicle for a truck, besides the obvious (ruggedness, corrosion resistance, etc) is that you can more easily swap in components from heavier duty vehicles. It's not that big a project to put a real truck transmission (e.g. Eaton 9spd) in my 1998 Dodge. It would be a huge project to do it in a modern unibody vehicle. Light duty automotive transmissions do not hold up under the kinds of loads trucks put on them when they're actually being used at capacity.
Also it would be lunacy to attempt heavy towing or snow plowing without a frame.
If you just need a rolling box to move light loads of lumber around, towing a utility trailer behind your car is probably a better option than a unibody pickup truck. If you actually need a truck, I can't imagine why you'd want one without a frame.
>Light duty automotive transmissions do not hold up under the kinds of loads trucks put on them when they're actually being used at capacity.
It's not 1995. They're fine. They'll wear out sooner but they're fine. 200k instead of 300k. By virtue of being able to handle lead footed stoplight to stoplight driving the transmission, cooling, etc, etc, is in pretty good shape to handle the sizes and speeds of things you'd want to tow with a Maverick. Nobody is hammering down in a Maverick towing god knows how much up a grade or plowing so it really doesn't matter. Towing loads on the body are essentially a non-issue since every modern hitch is engineered well enough to spread the load enough the vehicle can handle it.
As far as suspension goes they handle ~2k in the bed just fine (done it) so there's some implied capacity for tongue weight there even if it's not 1:1. I can't speak to the Hyundai Santa Cruz.
> It's not that big a project to put a real truck transmission (e.g. Eaton 9spd) in my 1998 Dodge.
It would be the exact same sized project in a unibody vehicle that used a longitudinal transmission. But you wouldn't have the easy button of just doing a body lift to make things fit, you'd actually need to dick with the tunnel and firewall and whatnot to do it the right way.
Regardless, that's not a use case the OEM needs to support.
>If you just need a rolling box to move light loads of lumber around, towing a utility trailer behind your car is probably a better option than a unibody pickup truck. If you actually need a truck, I can't imagine why you'd want one without a frame.
A utility trailer works fine if you don't actually need to do anything on short notice. You never have them when you need them. Backing them into dumb spaces can be a pain. The threshold at which things need to be tied down is lower. It's just not as elegant of a solution as a pickup box.
From a US perspective I guess. Here in NZ, the 2011 Ford Ranger was already amongst the largest and tallest vehicles on the road (excluding actual trucks and buses of course).
Hard no from me, that's a golf cart, not a truck.
Dealbreaker. Too bad they couldn't get it legal on 45mph or less. It would literally open up 99% of non-highway routes.
New benchmark just dropped
As for the imports, I saw one of these 90s-era right-hand drive kei trucks at a parking lot a few months ago and talked with the owner. He was a young guy who lived in Boston, said it was super easy to park. Speed maxed out at 70 mph, which is fine for local trips but maybe not for long highway trips.
For people in jurisdictions that allow 30 year old truck imports, and are interested in getting one, there are other countries that use such trucks and have left-hand drive. Taiwan has models from CMC and Suzuki, and I believe South Korea also makes them.
I know a kid who drove his tractor to school once in a while, it topped out at ~20. If dad had the truck and mom had the car, what else was he gonna do? Using a low-speed vehicle in a pinch is not a new idea to these trucks' target customers. Having such a vehicle but with A/C and airbags is probably a huge selling point, actually.
[1]: https://www.deere.com/en-us/products-and-solutions/gator-uti...
If Scion limits the top speed to 25mph it'd be useless to me for our farm. I'd still rather buy an imported Honda Acty or Suzuki Carry for the price, if I'm lucky I'd find one with a hydrolic dump bed and still be cheaper than what Scion will likely be able to sell this for.
I have zero concerns about the speed governor. That's gonna end up being a flash mod you can do yourself in your garage, I guarantee it. Worst case scenario, someone will start selling ECUs on eBay or something.
So I drove it the whole way. It was god awful - noisy, slow, every corner felt like it was picking up the wheels and about to roll over. But it was hilarious and definitely possible to do a trip like that lol.
Cost is a major factor, but so is the convenience of driving (and parking) a car with a small foot print. Plenty of people who could afford a larger car opt to go with a kei car for that reason. My family has one large luxury car and one kei car, and for a lot of day-to-day stuff the kei car gets more use because it's more convenient to park or drive on narrow streets.
And modern kei cars like the N-Box/Tanto/Roox have gotten pretty nice and cost upwards of ¥3,000,000 with lots of bells and whistles - more than some regular cars. Definitely not luxurious by any means, but very roomy inside and well-suited to city driving and even light highway driving with a turbo.
I mean, "most private drivers" in Japan is a _tiny_ subset of people, no? Isn't a large part of that basically just rich people showing off?
Yes, like most other rich countries, cars are a status symbol. Kei car/truck basically says you are middle class or below. Regular size car/van is the flex, especially German cars.
Funniest thing my brother has sent me pictures of while living in Japan was a local guy in Nara who drove an imported H2 Hummer.
In terms of fuel economy (mileage), vehicles are typically tested and rated in at least two environments:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_automobiles#Di...
* "City driving" which means surface road speeds and the typical stop-and-go of traffic lights, stop signs and other controls.
* "Highway driving" which means, sustained speeds 55mph+ without the stop-and-go. This category is usually judged more efficient, especially for ICE vehicles.
Now, there may be other design considerations, such as "city vs. rural" if they're manufacturing tractors and combines vs. sports cars. And categories beyond these I've already mentioned. So when we say the vehicle is "designed for cities", do we mean that all of these boxes have been checked? Because in terms of fuel economy, "city driving" and "highway driving" both happen in cities.
1. The article is about kei trucks, not kei cars. different things. 2. Kei is Japanese regulatory category designed for Japan. Japan is a country with quite a bit of non city places where kei .* are quite popular.
Alphard and Velfire are designed for cities, ideally dense areas where driving them isolates you from high traffic and the passers by you force to move out of your way.
Palanquin were probably the ideal Japanese vehicle for both city and country.
I also maintain that 'loud pipes save lives' (lol), and being bright yellow does also add a little to it's visibility on the road.
Yeah, many vehicles do stay on the farm. Some farms are also huge, so you'll see large farm equipment using the narrow back roads to move between fields. You'll see everything from huge equipment that almost blocks the road to little ATVs, all on the same roads with the cars. Everybody around here is used to being on a 45/55 mph speed limit road and coming across vehicles that cannot go that speed. It is just part of living in rural USA.
Well thats a regulatory issue in the US. Without load, the truck without limiter will hapily do 50mph, and less happily 60+, although it might take you some time to get there.
I'm unsure if you're serious. But yeah, sarcasm. All cars are safe until you crash them.
Daihatsu sells an "agriculture special" model Hijet with a special suspension that can carry far than 600 lbs [2]. During harvesting season, it's typical to see them hauling around full sacks of freshly-harvested rice which can weigh up to 750 kg [3]. A lot of the kei trucks that get imported to the US are probably these agriculture models.
The penalties for exceeding the weight limit can actually be pretty severe. But it seems police turn a blind eye to farmers making short, low-speed trips to the processing plant on rural public roads.
[1] https://carbuzz.com/features/jdm-gentlemans-agreement-japane...
[2] https://www.daihatsu.co.jp/lineup/truck/02_grade.htm?item=5
[3] https://www.asunouka.jp/SHOP/2015081903.html
[0]: https://www.honda.co.jp/snow/lineup/large/hsl2511-jr.html
I ordered 1 yard of soil and loaded 30 of the 60 bags. It was a short trip but it did fine.
For scale, 30bags filled it to the top of the bed almost exactly. It was also really wet im sure I was pushing well over 1k lbs
Probably about 600 lbs of soil. Nobody in the city is going to “farm supply stores”, whatever those are. If you live on a gigantic lot out in the boonies then by all means take your gigantic lifted dodge ram
Some cities even give away mulch at recycling/compost centers.
Eh I live in the city and last time I had 1200lb of mulch delivered it came from a depot like 10 minutes away, also in the city. Could have saved $100 by picking it up myself.
1. Not to be confused with a feed mill which will typically only have livestock feed and in bulk for better pricing.
There's sizeable demand for people who want to be able to do runs to the bigbox stores for garden and DIY renovation supplies and store it the rest of the time.
Other commenters in this thread explain that they own Kei imports and drive them faster.
After that, when vehicle sizes start trending down towards reasonable, we can look at getting speeds up without reducing overall safety.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUV#United_States
The idea to introduce light trucks in passenger-car shape to get around pollution limits was the car manufacturers' idea. However, the US public ran with it and bought because of the perceived higher safety and social status that comes with driving a larger, heavier vehicle than everyone else. And they continue to buy to attempt to one-up each other even though the pollution limits now apply to SUVs as well as smaller passenger cars.
I don't buy cars based on their pollution capabilities like some Captain Planet villain. Maybe other consumers are different.
They should probably do that: sell a variant without doors and with knobby tires as a UTV.
Whether you feel safe doing so is a separate question, of course.
https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/5954
1: https://www.fiatusa.com/models/topolino
It's only "blocking" because the drivers think the bike is too slow. Which is because they want to break the law themselves and speed dangerously. It's pretty bogus.
Regardless of his mode of transit if he's going below the prevailing speed and avoiding taking opportunities to let others pass (which the form factor of his vehicle makes especially plentiful in this case) he deserves to hear about it in a not nice way.
Not that it's applicable here but it's doubly true so if he could simply go faster and conform to traffic norms but chooses not to (this is why a speed limit following Prius catches more shit than a laden truck that can only go that fast).
To me, that seems like the city is entrapping its citizens to make up for a lack of revenue, when the data clearly shows the speed limit should probably be adjusted. But no, they move to develop a lottery system to send the infractions.
The only reason for the speed to trend downwards is the increasing threat of a ticket from an automated system that cannot be reasoned with. A real cop generally isn't going to ticket me for going 5, maybe even 10 over a posted 40MPH zone unless they fished me for something else during the the stop. Flow of traffic is everything.
The cameras in Ontario issued an order of magnitude fewer tickets than yours. The highest volume cameras issued about 100 a day.
The lottery system they're building to support the capacity issue is going to calculate weights based on the most egregious speeders, which I guess is nice...
I remember twenty years ago flying into someplace in Florida and finally getting my rental car on the road at 2 AM. At a certain point I was on what was, to me growing up in New England, the equivalent of a divided six-lane highway.
I open up because no one the was on the road, and immediately get blue flashing lights in my mirrors.
Turns out this "six lane highway" was considered the equivalent of a back alleyway and the speed limit was 35.
You can slow people down by making lanes thinner, adding in-road obstacles or chicanes, removing road markings to take drivers out of their complacency and get them actively thinking, and at the slowdown at the end of a road, using tightly packed lines or rumble strips to give the impression of speed, to which they naturally react by slowing down. You also stagger junctions, and put in bends, rather than have a fast road run directly onto a slow one (or vice-versa) and then say to yourself "WELL, I DID MY PART, I MADE A NICE FAST ROAD SLAM RIGHT INTO A SLOW ONE, AND IT'S ENTIRELY ON THE DRIVERS TO NOTICE THAT STOP SIGN AND SLOW DOWN IN TIME. NOT MY PROBLEM IF THEY DON'T"
Naturally, if you do the opposite, and build a wide, long, straight road with few visual indications of how fast people are going, even the most conscientious will likely zone out and start unintentionally speeding up. It's simple human psychology.
You can't be like "human psychology's not a thing, I'll judge every single human like they're completely omniscient and perfectly rational", because there are millions of people who unintentionally do things they don't rationally want to do, every single day, because they were psychologically manipulated. Use road design to manipulate them into doing the right thing, rather than manipulate them into doing the wrong thing and then directly take money from them. That's a dark pattern.
This is not remotely close to entrapment.
Indeed, nothing forces, but road designs really strongly suggest through the use of psychology. The mafioso didn't force you to be a drug mule when he said he'd murder your family if you didn't. The website didn't force you to let them sell your data when they put in giant bold letters "AGREE AND ENTER" and in 5 point grey on grey "decline" -- after the website's owners ran multiple rounds A/B testing to see what was most effective at getting people to click the option that gives them free money. They didn't force you, it's all your choice buddy. You feel tricked or conned? Like you were carefully goaded into making a choice against your best interest? Well, you shouldha read the small print, sucker!
Anyway, I don't think these things are "entrapment" (meaning the police coerce you into breaking a law you wouldn't otherwise have broken), but they are sketchy, especially if the organisation in charge of enforcement also gets a cut of the fines.
Your example reminds me very much of Brookside, Alabama, where the tiny town's police department did everything in its power to bilk passing motorists for its own private enrichment. https://reason.com/2026/10/01/judge-preliminarily-blesses-1-...
> Brookside "recognizes" that its "policy of aggressive policing," which "prioritized generating revenue for the department's expansion," "likely interfered with the Town's obligation to administer justice equally under law," "undermined the public's trust in the justice system," and "raised serious constitutional concerns under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment."
Uh, yeah it is? This is literally textbook coercion through threat of murder. I'm not sure how this is relevant to people who don't pay attention to speed limits and speed, though.
Also, the example in your linked article isn't even related to speed limits:
> According to the lawsuit, Coleman "was following three or four car lengths behind" her boyfriend's car. But Sellers claimed she was "tailgating." He also claimed to smell marijuana, which supposedly justified ordering Coleman out of her car and handcuffing her.
You keep designing deadly streets and roads that encourage speeding, you keep producing and marketing bigger and bigger more dangerous vehicles... Ads about power and speed... And then turn around and blame people as being solely responsible?
No, the overall system is a direct cause of crashes and deaths as well.
At the societal level these things are numbers games. If you don't want people going 60 on a road don't build a road where normal conditions cause that to be a comfortable and safe speed.
"Quiet down you gangly bunch of blowhard bollards!"
That just felt satisfying. If I could channel John Cleese (the indignant version of course), the above line would be perfect.
The problem is a cultural one. Most people interpret a speed limit of N as "I should go N+10" (or something like that). If we remove speed limits, the majority of people would end up driving at unsafe speeds. People will always break speed limits unless they are set at that unsafe level.
Make roads narrower. Add more bends and lateral shifts. Plant trees along the road to obstruct sight lines. Build roads so that only speeds below the speed limit are safe on them and people will travel below the speed limit.
If if the conditions actually require it, that’s when I brake. Not because a sign told me too when I may not actually need to. I feel that’s probably the most economical option.
[[citation needed]]
(particularly section 2 "Limitations of the 85th Percentile Rule for Setting Speed Limits")
I'll admit that "the majority" could be an overstatement, perhaps I should have said "enough people to be dangerous"
I would be totally fine fine with speed limits being actual, enforced, no wiggle room limits, IF the actual limits were reasonable in the first place. This would mean most interstates outside of built up areas being posted at 80-90mph, say .
Agree that the lottery is silly though. I would give people a free hit a year. You get a warning saying, this one is free if you don't break the limit again. If you do, pay both fines.
Also index the fines to income.
We can kill speeding. It's just a matter of resolve and time. It'd save a lot of lives.
If you drive significantly slower than the flow of traffic it can create a hazard for other drivers.
Generally speaking, much of driving is predicting what other drivers will do. If you behave significantly differently than other cars you do raise the chances of an accident.
Most cops will likely even pull you over for that.
I’ve seen more than one person try to merge onto a highway at 45 MPH and every time they very nearly caused an accident.
Speed differential based ticketing. That guy who stops on the ramp when traffic is going 60 is teeing up the same potential ~40mph accident as the guy trying to weave through the same traffic at 100.
Reverse the default rules of rear ending liability in merging zones as the cherry on top.
We really should reverse the rules of default liability for rear ending in merge zones.
I'm sure there's some kinks to iron out but I think my plan is solid.
It's a work truck not a Prius with a Coexist sticker.
And that's how to get these banned.
People reflash these to remove the speed governor, then drive them on regular roads. These things hold up traffic, piss people off, who then complain to law enforcement. The police do nothing about it so the issue gets raised to state and federal legislators, who do take action.
You can get away with a lot, so long as you don't bother anyone. The EPA didn't crack down on diesel tuners until coal rolling became enough of an issue that people complained about the lack of enforcement.
IDK what kind of gearing this gimped version will come with, but it apparently has the same 660cc engine as the "real" Japanese version that can do 70+ mph. That's not a vehicle that's going to hold up traffic by being too slow, unless it's camping in the left lane on the freeway.
Just how cars that can be hacked to eliminate pollution controls are banned?
Oh wait. That doesn't happen. The individual that does the hacking can get in trouble; the company? Not so much.
Results from crash testing of the Japanese model aren't great (scored 1 out of 5 in JNCAP; higher is better), but since results are only comparable to similar weight vehicles, we can't compare to bigger cab-overs directly, only to passenger Kei cars, where some reach 4 out of 5, with a few scoring the full 5.
So it's basically useless to the American market outside of the farming and rural campgrounds communities.
We already import thousands of Kei trucks a year for farm truck use and those imported trucks can even have their speed limiters removed to go 55mph depending on the state laws, this is pointless.
This little truck could do a lot more than 25 mph if it were allowed to do so. Not saying that would be safe, and I'd not want to ever put one on a busy freeway, but for getting around most urban cities in the US it's fine as-is but would be even better if the limit was ~40 mph.
IOW, it needs to keep the 25mph speed limiter to qualify as a low speed vehicle, even in Colorado.
But rolling back or adding exemptions for small trucks is political suicide despite the clear environmental benefits.
CARB only nudges manufacturers, but the market’s own purchase preferences are doing the big push.
Perhaps the biggest nudge is that gasoline is undertaxed. Consumers will never see a reason to stop driving a 18-25mpg truck when gas being less than $5 a gallon is considered a “high” price. The gas tax hasn’t kept up with inflation.
I don’t love the ford F-150 for being a monster truck, but consider this: with the right configuration it sears 6 adults comfortably, plus having a bed for cargo. Families legitimately replace minivans and other family vehicles with it, plus it can tow and haul being the body on frame truck that it is.
It might actually be, but I always assumed it was carbon emissions.
Also, it's Corporate Average Fuel Economy. Not Model Average Fuel Economy. So those 150k or so Mavericks have to offset the to the like 600k or so F-Series pickups being sold with 400+HP motors.
Ford has never paid a CAFE fine, despite selling predominantly gas guzzling pickups, SUVs, and having its only car being a sports car. This is because of the aforementioned credits they get for flex fuel support, etc.
Either way, if the Maverick gets 37MPG already, seems like it’s not that much of an ask to get it to 67mpg.
If Slate can make a $25,000 EV truck I don’t see why Ford can’t do the same.
With inflation running so hot in the US, I will be very surprised if they can keep their promise for a 25K USD base model truck, and maintain it for any significant period of time. I found the preorder agreement here: https://www.slate.auto/en/terms/preorder
Man, what a word salad! In short, there is no guarantee about the final base price.I created a poll for this topic here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50448128
The Ford Fathom isn't that far off.
All while the Maverick has a bed that probably can't properly move a couch.
You probably can't really fit a couch on the back of a kei truck either, but it's ok because they're cute.
[1] https://www.vehiclesizes.com/compare/3771-7714/ford-maverick...
The appeal of a Maverick is that it’s a normal family vehicle that drives just like a passenger car while having a bed where you can put dirty stuff.
I know I see a lot of light duty fleets that switched from Rangers to F-150s only because the Ranger was discontinued and there were no small trucks to switch to.
These are businesses that need a 6 foot bed for gear, but don't need to have more than one seat (but two is fine), and would like fuel efficiency and dollar efficiency.
Some of them went to work vans, but nobody is selling those right now either.
I used to have a 2007 Ranger I bought new, but sold it due to parking restrictions and no specific current need for a truck. When I needed a light truck again (~ 2019), there was nothing to buy new. I don't want a real truck cause they're too big, I don't want more than one row of seats. I ended up with a 2003 S-10, cause that's what was available in the marketplace for me.
Americans collectively purchase over 1 million trucks a year. They come in all kinds of different form factors from work truck with unpainted bumpers to 700HP supercharged dune runners, there are massive couches on wheels with interior made from saddle leather, to trucks pushing 1000ft-lbs to torque. There are EVs trucks with 400 miles of range and crossovers with the hatch turned into a tiny bed. There's even a Jeep Wranger with a bed (Gladiator).
If there's a significant market for a truck niche, it's covered. Trucks are far and away the most diverse segment of the US auto market. If manufactures killed of the truck you want, it's because they apparently can't find 1,999 other people to buy that trim.
Substitute "car" for "truck" in that statement, and you have exactly the justification Ford and GM had for not building the first minivans in the late '70s.
Ford even had all the detailed market research that said you could move ~700K units of such a vehicle per year; but disbelieved it, "b/c if that were truly the case, GM would've made those already."
Hal Sperlich took that information with him to Chrysler after Henry Ford II fired him, and the first thing he did at Chrysler was to convince John Riccardo to develop the K-car, which provided the parts Sperlich would need for the minivan a few years later. Despite the staggering profits generated by the first minivans, it took GM another six years, and Ford another ten to begin selling a competitive product.
Point is, don't assume every addressable profitable niche is actually being addressed.
They do not come in all form factors. Compact trucks are missing.
> If manufactures killed of the truck you want, it's because they apparently can't find 1,999 other people to buy that trim.
If that were true, Ford wouldn't have stopped selling the Ranger in the US. They stopped making them in December 2011.
Yearly sales [2] were
Why stop when you're selling 50k+ a year, and sales increase to 70k when you let people know you're cancelling it.Canadian sales were about 20k a year, with 2011 and 2012 combining to hit 20k-ish. [2]
If it's not sales, and it's not competition (because all of the competition stopped servicing this market, too), it's because CAFE forced us to buy bigger or older trucks.
[1] https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/ford/ranger#year-sale...
[2] https://carfigures.com/canada-market-brand/ford/ranger#year-...
The Maverick is a compact truck. It's slightly shorter and somewhat wider than the Ranger.
It's specifically only the 2-seat compact truck form factor that's missing.
> As an intentionally low-volume, niche vehicle, the KEI-01 will initially be offered through a fleet-focused pilot program to help the company learn how it can best serve U.S. customers and use cases.
https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-says-okei-to-america-int...
I do hope they're able to build on this, and maybe offer left-hand-drive and a more reasonable top speed eventually.
This is exploiting the existing LSV classification to bypass the chicken tax that limits the current market to old used imports. It will be easy enough to mod them for higher speeds on farms.
US roads are built for much, much higher speeds. Kei cars purposefully give up safety with the caveat that they’re only used on low speed roadways, and Japan designs their roads with the intention of these vehicles being acceptably safe in that context.
On intercity highways in Japan you are driving next to as large trucks as anywhere I've driven.
Ex. There is no visible difference between Germanies highways (no speed limit) and Switzerland with 120kmh max
IIUC a typical "real" Japanese kei truck can manage 60-70 mph easily, if not comfortably. That's more than enough to hang with traffic on the vast majority of American roads, and nobody sane is using these things as long distance transportation. So the "they're too slow" argument is clearly bunk.
That leaves the crash safety angle. I can't help noticing that motorcycles are still legal, or did I miss something? Anyway, it's very emblematic of the American approach to road safety that some small, light vehicles are uncertifiable on safety grounds, but the sizes and weights of personal vehicles are allowed to grow in unbounded fashion. There is clearly no safety issue with getting groceries and picking your kid up from school in something that weighs most of 10K lbs and has such dogshit sight lines that you could run over a whole school bus's worth of kids in a crosswalk and hardly notice.
Freedom? Personal responsibility? Not quite---you can make a choice to endanger other road users, but never yourself! Unless you ride a motorcycle, in which case that's okay.
Perhaps an attempt to balance both.
Working class buys cheapest available <insert product here>. Allow sale of new vehicles without seatbelts, airbags, etc. and that becomes the attractive thing to lease (assuming it can be insured). Allow, say… uninspected beef & dairy products instead and if those savings are passed on, that’ll be purchased by low-income folks too.
Motorcycles have a built-in discouragement from the cost-optimizing behavior: lack of those two extra wheels.
>Not quite---you can make a choice to endanger other road users, but never yourself!
Would be open to ways regulate enormous vehicles which’re dangerous to the public outside their cabins. Keep taxpayers alive + out of hospitals they might not be able to afford (cost passed on to me).
But, (again) since you mentioned it---"new vehicles without seatbelts, airbags, etc." is a misrepresentation of modern kei vehicles. Kei cars sold new today have seatbelts, crumple zones, airbags, ABS, AEB, and so on. They perform well in crashes for their size---sure, they are small cars, but they aren't a scheme to foist unsafe-by-design shitboxes on people who can't afford something safer.
More recent kei pickups still use the cabover design which necessarily limits your available crumple volume, but even those have the modern safety systems. The imports you see in the US are 25+ years old, which affects their safety outcomes in the way you would expect. People here buy them despite the age and import rigamarole (arguably a terrible value on paper) because there is demand.
---
The Smart Fortwo is probably the closest thing to a modern kei car we've had in the US outside of imports. IIUC they made it work with our regs by designing to them from the start, but in practice its safety outcomes were apparently pretty similar to kei cars in Japan, and exactly what you'd expect: decent performance in single vehicle crashes, but they suffer in crashes with larger vehicles. They weren't sold on the cheap to lure cost-conscious buyers (neither are kei cars in Japan), and ultimately I guess Americans just didn't want to buy them. But they were solid runabouts for city dwellers and didn't feel unsafe to drive in that context.
tl;dr: If there was some viable scheme to sell new-ish kei vehicles in the US, I would not be terribly worried about the scenario you describe, and IMO implying some equivalence between e.g. a hypothetical moderate regulatory carve-out for such vehicles with abandonment of beef and dairy product inspections is utterly ridiculous.
You seem to be better at comparisons than me:
One note on selling new vehicles without safety features: that is an example of what might be made without regulation and what would definitely be purchased on both the new and later the used market by those who can't afford more.
On the beef inspection point, I wanted a random example to drive home that poverty stinks and in every single product category the absolute cheapest SKU has plenty of buyers. You well likely are able to offer a better example I could have thrown out?
Maintenance is challenging (entirely DIY, as no shops around here care to touch it), but getting most parts has been fairly straightforward, just slow if we have to ship them from Japan.
The Kei van format is fantastic, and we've even installed seatbelts for the rear fold-down seats and we drive our kids around in it. I can't seem to get it higher than about 60mph, but that's scary fast for this vehicle. We don't ever really need to take it on the highway. It's so simple to park, visibility and features are amazing, even for an older vehicle. Ahead of it's time! I would love to get a pickup version, but don't have an excuse for that yet.
They're great for local hauling or a short commute, but impractical as a general purpose vehicle due to limited range and speed (the type I was looking at, anyway). Top speed is 40mph and they're legal to drive only on roads with speed limit 35mph or lower, and range with the 10kwh battery pack is around 40 miles iirc. But, if you only use it a few miles per day on average and park it outside, putting solar panels on the roof means it literally never needs fuel or charging. The stopper for me was being unable to drive on the freeway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIPXsvWPcGI
btw, there is a Californian company called Telo Truck that wants to sell a Kei-ish truck but as an EV cab forward. I say Kei-ish because it is 152 inch long (they compare it to a Mini on their website), where as Kei trucks can max be 134 inch, it gives me the same shape and vibes.
If the company ever makes it to production, then i guess that could be a real option.
When I bought my Scion, after finishing the transaction, I asked the salesman: "It's obvious who these cars are being marketed to. But who buys them?"
His answer: "Old tightwads like you."
Another company that deserves plaudits for the same is mutiny.fm who are building an open source kei truck out of a disused factory in Detroit. Similar limitations as the new scion, but aimed at people for whom repairability and modifiability are virtues in a vehicle
I don't know if you are affiliated with Telo or just find them fascinating as a product segment, but a starting price of 42k USD is the thing that "stands out" the most for me about their product. Otherwise, I do like the segment - but this pricing is offensive.
Recently almost bought an '06 xB toaster except it was a Series limit edition with the special paint job. It had chipped paint on the hood from rocks and the owner said his insurance would total it instead of repainting because the paint was so expensive.
As a result we don't get "right sized" trucks like the kei or more efficient farm vehicles like the hilux.
http://archive.today/rLNx6
All that said, $25k isn't cheap when you can get a basic Polaris SXS for $15k. It might not be street legal in many states, but much of the usage is going to be on private property.
There are even a few businesses that specialize in these vehicles: https://www.marsminitrucks.com
The same places small golf carts, Cushman carts, or side-by-sides are being used already.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-by-side_(vehicle)
You were always allowed to import small kei trucks in the US if you didn't take them on public streets - you were just never allowed to register them. You would regularly see them in zoos or in manufacturing yards - in LHD to boot!
It's a little disappointing, they are basically going to be treated legally like a golf cart and electronically limited. An identical imported model would go all the way up to 55mph on the same drivetrain.
It's all limited by the US maddening approach to traffic safety - a 3 ton pickup with 6 foot pedestrian blind spots gets top safety ratings, but a small truck going 30mph is illegal.
They are not fun cars, they should be cheap and disposable.
The MSRP for this in japan is less than $10,000,$6000 for the base model:
https://toyota.jp/pixistruck/
It's going to go here for what, $15,000? $25,000? Better than buying a 25 yr old one for $10,000 from a used dealer lot that has no parts or real mechanic trained on them but at that price point..
a Mavrick is better.
The amazon truck is better.
And yeah, absolutely not comfortable.
Toyota selling them for $25k is parasitism. The idea of selling a cheap truck is apparently impossible with their cost structures. (Worse, if it succeeds it will ruin the Japanese market)
The best outcome is that this is a mild success and America gets a second generation shit version for 40 or 50k that has been fattened and rendered worthless, much like the second generation XB. (Hopefully the second generation is on some slop tier SUV platform so it doesn't wreck the economics of the Japanese market.)
That is my new, personal record. Haven't had a site wanting to sell my data to this many parties yet.
It seems like they just reached into the "previously granted trademark" bin and pulled out a random name.
It's the VW Microbus all over again.
A kei truck is about the least American-market thing ever
Kei trucks are so dang useful looking.
I hope they make an electric one.
There are a bunch of YouTube videos reviewing them.
(Yes: The passenger's legs.)
Let's see here:
LSV: Okay, whatever the market is limited to farm equipment and campuses but the agrijeep was a success despite that
Automatic: WHY. Cost? Maintenance? All so Paul Blart can drive the thing without picking up the automotive equivalent of riding a bike.
Fleet sales only: You are fucking kidding. A lot of fleets buy exclusively American either by obligation or by habit. You lock out half the market for this thing right here.
28k MSRP: Dead on arrival, Slate, a Ford Maverick, the Fathom if it either releases. You are objectively paying more for less.
How Toyota. How could you fuck this one up so bad? I'm almost convinced that Toyota has introduced this simply to manufacture consent for America's lack of compacts. Make the absolutely least appealing package possible and then go "Oh well! Americans only want Toyota Tundra ;)"
Maybe in Belgium or Netherlands it could work But America? With its land surface and distances? this is dead on arrival
If you want a second hand Kei truck market you're up against hundreds of exporters all bidding at auctions for the best ones who are paying with USD.
The SXS looks cool, but gearheads want a tiny Jeep replacement (which there are none of in the US), not another UTV/buggy we already have
Toyota - and Japan in general - has a helluva trade relationship with the US, but that's effectively all Detroit knows how to beat the world at anymore and they love the margins on their truck portfolios, to the point that they considered sedans and most coupes to be too thin to warrant continued production.
That is NOT a lot of people involved.
I worked golf course landscaping during some summers in college and drove Gators, which did their job well. But they certainly weren't any relief from being out in the sun all day. This Scion minitruck has heat and air conditioning. And locking doors. So it'll be a respite from the outdoors, as well as a secure (well, as secure as any car) place to leave your personal items.
Right now, if you want certain things in a truck in the US and Canada, you must buy a full-size, even if they could be offered as features on smaller trucks that would not justify the same MSRP in the minds of customers. I think this is part of why we don't see any real competition from GM or Stellantis to the Ford Maverick almost three years on. GM would rather you buy a mid- or full-size truck, and Stellantis doesn't offer anything other than full-size Rams.
A 600 pound weight limit (including passengers!!) and 25 MPH limit are both deal-breakers for my use case, and I can't see anyone around where I live buying one. Maybe there is a big enough niche market on the commercial side?